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Chas, the "battle" is fairly plain to see, witness the "fifth column" accusation and unanswered "Mall Ninja" post above in this thread. There is definitely "friendly fire" being directed from 2A supporters towards OC supporters with the intent of marginalizing them. I personally haven't seen the OC movement blasting any other part of the 2A community beyond the "your part of the solution or the problem" kind of rhetoric.

And I'm certainly not attributing the marginalization to you personally Chas. This forum was recommended to me be a friend (thanks Herb!), I really don't know much about you other than that you seem quite earnest about supporting the 2A. I understand and share the concerns you have about unproductive OC demonstrations making other legislative efforts difficult or worse causing a roll-back of 2A rights.

The OC movement in Texas does not consist entirely of "bomb throwers" IMHO. Instead it appears to largely consist of a few radicals at the core, and many otherwise average Texans who see OC as an expression of their discontent with the direction of government and culture. It's much more about "Individual Liberty" than the specifics of OC, which is why it isn't going to go away with rational arguments about how demonstrations might bring about tighter restrictions.

Further, I agree the OC movement is quite small vs the number of Texans who support CHL. But I believe the OC movement is going to continue to grow as our general political and cultural situation continues in the direction it's going. As more Texans seek to show they have "had enough" they will be recruited into the OC movement. It's for this reason that it cannot be "brought under control" through marginalization by the rest of the 2A community IMHO.

Now I expect that guys who have been fighting the 2A fight inch-by-inch for years probably feel like the OCers are jumping on their train, and rightly so, but it's really a moot point. I think everyone needs to acknowledge the newcomers, invite them into the party, and ask them to come "assert their liberty" by OCing at a productive structured 2A event. The alternative is to have a radical-led OC movement that appears unfocused and unpredictable.

The message from the rest of the 2A community should be "OC is our fight too, come join us" instead of "you guys are ruining our party" IMHO. In this way the radicals can be marginalized and the growing interest in OC can be productively channeled into other 2A efforts.

OK, going to go practice some draws from concealment.

G.A. Heath wrote: So what we need to do is get control of things and start to generate good publicity.

I think the "get control of things" part of that objective is not achievable if you mean to stop all OC demonstration. The cultural pressure is too strong, too many feel the need to "do something" at this point. However, if you mean to create a new OC movement, or co-opt the current one, so as to ensure people have a productive outlet for demonstration and thus generate good publicity I think that is a good strategy.

This brings up a good point, these OC groups are at least in part led by diehard radicals who if it weren't for OC would be protesting some other cause. By withholding support from OC wholesale, the Texas "establishment" 2A/CHL advocacy is in fact creating a leadership vacuum that these radicals are filling.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:Continued in-your-face tactics are far more likely to result in a bill to make it unlawful to carry long guns, with certain exceptions for hunting, sport shooting, cars, etc., than it is to result in passage of open-carry.

I'm with you Chas, but I think the OC demonstrations can't be stopped. As a result the 2A community is giving up an unforced error to the antigunners through this internal division. Instead of attacking the OC movement, it needs to be legitimized and embraced by experienced 2A guys who know how to organize in a productive manner. Let face it, the entire 2A community could use some of the energy the OC movement has.

Great discussion. I hate to get into a point-by-point quotathon on my first day here, but you bring up a lot.

G.A. Heath wrote:Here's my take on the situation. The concept that we will win because the law and the constitution are on our side will lead to our defeat. It is the overconfidence that statement leads to that will get us.

Overconfidence in ourselves is a problem, overconfidence in what is moral and right is never a problem.

Unloaded Handgun OC was legal in California until the "In your face because its the law and the constitution" OC crowd pushed a little too far and their legislature outlawed handgun OC completely.

Totally different context, first off, Texas is (thankfully) not California. Second, as you pointed out, California already had OC on the books, there was no clear linkage between OC and what they were trying to accomplish. Whereas here in Texas the linkage is quite apparent: OCers want OC legalized.

Rallying against all OC demonstrators, accusing them of being a fifth column for gun control, and generally attempting to delegitimize their cause is certainly a stance AGAINST 2A RIGHTS. It's unproductive, and frankly those people who are on-board with these groups are quite willing and capable to go on OCing without your support. The pressure building in this nation is going to seek an outlet, and lawful OC is an appropriate outlet. It's not even at the level of "Civil Disobedience".

So at the end of the day what do you think will best further 2A rights? As I said earlier, not all OC demonstration is productive and good. But let's not needlessly weaken a legitimate 2A cause with general condemnation.

When someone chooses to OC a rifle but gets hooked up by the law for resisting arrest because they didn't think it through, let's call that out as unproductive.

When the leader of an OC group threatens a law enforcement officer, let's call that out as unproductive.

But we have to recognize that 2A supporters condemning the exercise of a 2A right is itself unproductive.

jmra wrote:I'm outraged anytime someone brings a bucket of gas to a fire instead of a bucket of water. The radical OC idiots are not part of the solution, they are part of the problem.

I can understand why you feel this way, certainly some OC activists are over the top. However, the question is how radical is too radical?

I think lawful OC doesn't hurt the cause of 2A supporters because the written letter of the US Constitution is on the side of OC, and perhaps even more importantly the human right of self-defense is inextricably linked. IMHO, the more exposure this unjust law gets, the more consideration it will receive by the public, the more indefensible it will be.

Further, I think events such as the recent Alamo rally that are clearly within the letter of the law are also appropriate, especially in light of the vocally anti-gun local officials .

However, the line of useful protest is crossed when OC is done illegally, positions itself against law enforcement in general, or worse results in violence IMHO.

Personally I have yet to see an "OC Group" that fully understands where the "too radical" line is. It's an unfortunate fact that those who are most inclined to public spectacle are also those with the least judgement. It is for this reason that I think most 2A supporters are better off focusing on the legislative battle and not falling in with one of these groups. However, I think 2A supporters are not helping their cause by criticizing the lawful exercise of constitutional rights, that is certainly a losing strategy.

Thanks for the welcome Chas.

I'm really not inferring anything. Organizing at the local level is the cure, period.

My further suggestion is that instead of displaying "outrage" at OC activists, people concerned about 2A rights should recognize these events as justified blowback from unjust laws and redouble efforts to send the right people to the legislature and repeal them.

chasfm11 wrote: But doing the right thing requires Legislative action. That action today is thwarted by a minority of the Legislature who is granted extraordinary power by the politically powerful in order to maintain their power. It will take some exception event to break the cycle. Texas is headed the same direction as many other States where the populous centers are solidly Liberal and anti-gun and are slowly usurping control of the State level politics. That is not a prescription for correcting the Constitutional infringements.

We have a fix for that in Texas, it's called Gerrymandering.

The Starbucks OCers are a symptom, the disease is 2A infringement. The cure is organizing at the local level and sending the right leaders to the state legislature.

I understand all the tactical and cultural sensitivity issues involved, but the bottom line is bearing arms is a constitutional right that shall not be infringed.

IMHO it's only an issue here in Texas because we have made it illegal. I grew up in a state where OC was legal and I almost never saw anyone OCing. We have created this problem, it's time to do the right thing and legalize OC (and Bowie knives while we are at it).