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Frost wrote:
Killing someone already detained without a just process is murder. Torturing them is a greater evil.

If you insist that those in captivity at Gitmo were tortured then you have a skewed understanding of what torture is.

Frost wrote:I grasped it well enough, but i felt it would be inappropriate to hastily accuse you of advocating murder and worse. I am hardly a "bleeding heart" I would imagine a liberal would accuse me of being rather hard hearted towards the "underprivileged."

In my world trerrorists do not receive better treatment than a three-time loser car thief in California that is spending life in prison without parole.

Frost wrote: I am no legal scholar, but i will do my best to describe a just system. I believe that habeas corpus is too important to be suspended except when it is necessary to temporarily detain masses of people. A few hundred detainees over a period of years hardly qualifies. I believe probable cause that they are an enemy combatant would be satisfactory for turning them over to a military tribunal. If the tribunal finds them to be an enemy combatant they should be interrogated without torture and executed.

A process such as that should protect people from arbitrary state action and respect the inalienable rights of all people while not interfering with our ability to fight stateless enemies.

They are not a few hundred, they are in the thousands. Maobama's executive order also applies to the terrorists held in Iraq and Afghanistan. When you made the statement in an earlier post that only a few were captured in combat, you were wrong. Most of them were actually captured in combat by US and our Iraqi and Afghani allies. Most were not sent by other nations. Take another drink of kool aid. These are not cab drivers being railroaded. They are murdering thug terrorists. Go ahead and say it along with me. M-U-R-D-E-R-I-N-G T-E-R-R-O-R-I-S-T-S. Not freedom fighters. Not uniformed military combatants. Not POWs. They do not even rank as criminals.

I am done.

Anygunanywhere

One thing that sickens me about the whole Gitmo deal parallels what Libert's thoughts were. We cook them their special muslim food with their allah secret sauce, hand them their infidel battle plan (koran) with gloved hands, provide them with everything they need including health care, and Americans are still the evil satan.

They have named the wrong people satan.

Anygunanywhere

Frost wrote:

anygunanywhere wrote:Why do I need proof? Why do I need to define a just process?

When your suggested punishment is torture and death, are you seriously asking those questions?

Yes. I guess you have not quite grasped my stance. I am not the bleeding heart here. You did not define your justice system. Tell us what it is. I am betting it is/will be the Maobama system.

ETA: BTW, if your or any other bleeding heart justice process results in the terrorists returning to the terrorist stock and trade or results in the death of any other innocent individual at all including non-Americans then your process is obviously flawed. Justice means that the guilty pay for their crimes and NEVER again perpetrate hostility towards another human being.

Anygunanywhere

Frost wrote:

anygunanywhere wrote:These are terrorist. They swear alegiance to a religious ideal.

Why are you certain that this is true for the every single one of the hundreds of detainees at GITMO?

anygunanywhere wrote:My position so we will be clear:

My disagreements with that position are relatively minor compared to a point you omitted. What would be a just process to determine that they are in fact terrorists?

Were they captured in combat fighting against our troops?

Did they kill US citizens? Several have bragged about what they have done openly. If, when captured, they tell interrogators that they want to kill us, deal with it.

Why do I need proof? Why do I need to define a just process? Evidently you are the one who wants proof. What do you want to do? Invite them over to your house for dinner? Chairman Maobama said he has people studying the situation and developing a process to deal with them. You can rest assured his process will prevent more terrorist attacks and make the world love us.

What I have stated is my system. If they walk and talk like terrorists they are terrorists.

Anygunanywhere

Frost wrote: My understanding is now that you believe the power to arbitrarily detain anyone is an appropriate power of the state, but we have simply allowed the wrong people to wield that power.

We are not arbitrarily detaining anyone. These are terrorist. They swear alegiance to a religious ideal. They are not uniformed organized military from any recognized country. They Are not signatories of any ratified treaty on warfare from any foreign nation.

Terrorists.

Frost wrote:If we had better bureaucrats we would not need to fear them labeling the wrong people.

Better bureaucrats are not needed. Bureaucrats who believe in the Constitution and BOR and the rights of Citizens of these 50 states are what we need.

Frost wrote:

anygunanywhere wrote: They were caught in the act...

If they were caught in the act. That is a question of fact that we must have a just process to determine which respects the natural, god given, inalienable and self-evident rights of all people.

My position so we will be clear:

1. Terrorists do not have rights guaranteed by COTUS or BOR.

2. Bringing them to Gitmo was a mistake.

3. Terrorists do not have access to our civilian courts. SCOTUS has no jurisdiction over individuals that do not have our rights.

4. When captured they should have been questioned in a manner consistent with the way they treated Americans they have held captive. Since the world does not define the way they treat us as barbaric then it must be just fine.

5. Once all valuable information was gleaned they should have been executed in a manner consistent with the way they have executed Americans they have held captive. Again, since the world does not define the way they execute captives as barbaric then it must be just fine.

6. I do not care what the world would think about this. Frankly if we actually did this then other nations would not mess with us.

7. Free will. The terrorists made the conscious decision to do what they did. They must understand the consequences of their actions. They want to be martyrs. Give them what they desire!

Some may think I am being inconsistent but I do not. So far what we have done has not eliminateds the problem. Continuing to do what we are doing is insanity.

Anygunanywhere

Nicely played, Liberty.

Anygunanywhere

Frost wrote:

anygunanywhere wrote:If it had been doen then we would not be worrying ourselves about being labeled terorist for our beliefs.

I am not exactly sure what you mean here.

If we had stopped the three branches of government from trampling on the Constitution and BOR the very first time they tried we would not be concerned with being labeled as terrorists by tyrannical government thugs.

Frost wrote:

anygunanywhere wrote:Should we roll over on our backs and expose our bellies beause we fear being labeled? Which is worse? Why don't we deal with the wrongs?

Anygunanywhere

Do you mean we would lose the "war on terror" if we allowed people to challenge their detention?

Allow who to challenge their detention and under what basis? The terrorists? Here is where we will disagree. They were caught in the act and should be eliminated, erased, vaporized.

Anygunanywhere

Frost wrote:

anygunanywhere wrote:If we deny murdering terrorists rights they never had in the first place under our constitution and BOR it doesn't effect law abiding citizens either.

This is the only way i can think of to make my point more clear:

If habeas corpus is denied to any group(murdering terrorists)then all rights can be denied to anyone(you) by simply asserting their membership in that group(you are a murdering terrorist).

I hope that helps.

Frost, I have said the exact same thing before so I believe we are on the same page here. Way back when the three branches of the gubmint first started wiping their dirty boots on the Constitution and BOR was when we should have corrected the situation. If it had been done then we would not be worrying ourselves about being labeled terorist for our beliefs.

Should we roll over on our backs and expose our bellies beause we fear being labeled? Which is worse? Why don't we deal with the wrongs?

Anygunanywhere

Frost wrote:

anygunanywhere wrote:Those posters who insist that they do not believe in anyone losing their rights must be careful and not be convicted of a minor felony because you lose your God given rights to vote and the RKBA.

If we strip felons of the right to vote or carry it does not effect law abiding citizens one bit.

It does affect US Citizens who are protected by the constitution and BOR.

If we deny murdering terrorists rights they never had in the first place under our constitution and BOR it doesn't effect law abiding citizens either.

Anygunanywhere

Those posters who insist that they do not believe in anyone losing their rights must be careful and not be convicted of a minor felony because you lose your God given rights to vote and the RKBA. Gee, I wonder when those laws were enacted. We really need to watch out for our rights.

Poor terrorists.

Anygunanywhere

This will probably be deleted but I am going to say it anyway.

It is one thing to stand up for what is right, honorable, and principled, and quite another to be blinded by those principles and ignore the fact that evil exists in this world and that the only way to deal with this evil is to erase it from existence. Most of us here pride ourselves in doing what is right separate from what is defined as lawful by the myriad of laws we often find difficult to not violate. Even if we inadvertently break a law or intentionally violate traffic laws we take our lumps, pay the fines. Pay higher insurance rates and go on about our business. Our lives do not change drastically through these small infractions.

To me, the principles and value system that most hold as making them inherently American or even properly defined as members of a civilized society have evolved into a system of “zero tolerance” for using the proper definition of pure evil. We have a zero tolerance for evil but we also have a zero tolerance in defining evil and thus adequately dealing with the real thing. I prefer to call evil evil. We all know what his name is. The same zero tolerance in defining evil exists in the renaming of choosing to kill unborn babies as being “pro-choice”. Evil is evil and renaming it or failing to identify it as such does not change things or make it less evil.

These terrorists are the real thing, folks. They are true evil. They will never accept us. They will never give up their quest to exterminate us from existence except for one thing. That thing is if we were to bow down to their God, adopt their value system, and give up all that we hold dear including our freedom and salvation.

They know that the vast majority of western civilization does not have the will or stomach to deal with this evil and they will use this to steer us to the ultimate earthly confrontation when the same true evil that they are now meets with the ultimate good most of us here are waiting to see.
All we have to do is to wait and do nothing and it will come to pass. The future is written in stone and the only thing we can do is postpone it a little. If we are not going to postpone it at all then let’s go ahead and get it over with. Abandoning Guantanamo Terrorist Prison lessens the delay.

Closing Gitmo prison will not make evil people love us or make the evil go away or make us any safer.

Anygunanywhere

Purplehood wrote:

anygunanywhere wrote:They are not militia, partisans, or freedom fighters. They are scumbag terrorists. Lowly animals have more sense of right or wrong than they do even when they are eating their young. Those scumbag bottom feeders would cut your spouse and children's heads off in your living room and laugh at you while doing so. These terrorists make the worst on Texas death row look like ministers. I refuse to accept any notion that they have any rights. They gave theirs up when they pledged whatever alegiance to whatever higher power they bow down to, and their higher power is not the same God I worship.

The fact that any elected or appointed government official would ever label any American CITIZEN as a terrorist to accomplish any goal counter to the US Constitution and BOR when that person has done nothing wrong does not deserve to enjoy life either and should be locked up in a Gitmo like prison and given a sun dress and spike heels.

If anyone has a problem understanding this then we will have to just do the old "agree to disagree" shuffle. You obviously have a much different belief system than I have and I do not care to live in your world.

Anygunanywhere

We have always felt that way about anyone that we fight. It comes down to this, they are an organized bunch of people that are trying to kill us. In those instances, we get our organized bunch of people that kill for a living to go after them, based on our time-honored rules. They are no better or no worse than Attila the Hun, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Idi Amin...just add Osama bin Laden to the list.

My entire philosophy is this...we don't change our principles based on someone else's actions. If it gratifies you to call them something other than the "enemy", more power to you.

I will not be gratified until they cease to breathe clean air on this earth.

Anygunanywhere

They are not militia, partisans, or freedom fighters. They are scumbag terrorists. Lowly animals have more sense of right or wrong than they do even when they are eating their young. Those scumbag bottom feeders would cut your spouse and children's heads off in your living room and laugh at you while doing so. These terrorists make the worst on Texas death row look like ministers. I refuse to accept any notion that they have any rights. They gave theirs up when they pledged whatever alegiance to whatever higher power they bow down to, and their higher power is not the same God I worship.

The fact that any elected or appointed government official would ever label any American CITIZEN as a terrorist to accomplish any goal counter to the US Constitution and BOR when that person has done nothing wrong does not deserve to enjoy life either and should be locked up in a Gitmo like prison and given a sun dress and spike heels.

If anyone has a problem understanding this then we will have to just do the old "agree to disagree" shuffle. You obviously have a much different belief system than I have and I do not care to live in your world.

Anygunanywhere

Wildscar wrote:

anygunanywhere wrote:Obama and anyone who wants to close Gitmo are idiots.

I tried not to sugarcoat my comment.

Anygunanywhere

Looks pretty sugarcoated to me.

10 yo daughter rule.

Anygunanywhere

Obama and anyone who wants to close Gitmo are idiots.

I tried not to sugarcoat my comment.

Anygunanywhere