TexasCHLforum.com

03Lightningrocks wrote:

mamabearCali wrote:

03Lightningrocks wrote: Ahhah!!! Then he would have gotten me. I would have shot an innocent mall ninja! I think the OC radicals should be required to wear a sign that says, "Please don't shoot me, I am trying to impress the other guys on an internet forum." No sign??? It is a good shoot!

I'd appreciate it if you come to an OC state (like VA) that you don't shoot me just cause I am carrying OWB. I don't carry signs around though.

In all seriousness....since this is apparently a meme. Yall should know this is not what open carry is or what those of us that open carry look like or act like.

I know yall are kidding around, but really it is just as annoying as when they show the militia belonging to, cammo wearing, long bearded chain smoking 60 year old man as what all gun owners are like. It is good for a laugh, but it is not the truth. Eventually it starts to wear on a person being portrayed as an idiot when we are not.

That is not a fair analogy at all. After reading one post after another speaking of the issue and not once has it been simply OC your handgun in an OC state, your analogy falls apart.

There is a HUGE difference in what you just said about open carrying your holstered handgun in a open carry state and a bunch of internet ninja wanna bees trying to scare crap out of a bunch of soccer moms with military style rifles in a situation where it is not even close to a normal sight.

I bet your State did not get open carry by people acting in a menacing manner to soccer moms. Open carry is not a problem for me in any way. It is the method these jug heads are using to try and ram it down our throats. I am actually wondering if they are in reality anti gun people pretending to be pro gun while acting like complete hooligan redneck retards. They are doing far more damage than good. I believe most of them are coming from internet forums where the goal is to run back to the site, post pics of themselves and get an at-a-boy from fellow net warriors. Meanwhile, their "cool points" come at my expense and give the very impression of gun owners, that you say you are tired of, to the general public.

Just for the record... I was not joking. I see anyone dressed like that while holding a firearm in a ready to fire position walking in my vicinity at a mall, restaurant, coffee shop or any other place where that kind of get up is not required or even expected, I will assume the person is a shooter and shoot him in the face. If I am at a Klan Rally, which is not gonna happen, I would assume he is just another dumb redneck and ignore it.

I really hope you can see the distinct difference in what you are talking about and what is being debated here. Your form of carry in your State is not remotely related to the topic at hand.

stevem wrote:Chas, the "battle" is fairly plain to see, witness the "fifth column" accusation and unanswered "Mall Ninja" post above in this thread. There is definitely "friendly fire" being directed from 2A supporters towards OC supporters with the intent of marginalizing them. I personally haven't seen the OC movement blasting any other part of the 2A community beyond the "your part of the solution or the problem" kind of rhetoric.

And I'm certainly not attributing the marginalization to you personally Chas. This forum was recommended to me be a friend (thanks Herb!), I really don't know much about you other than that you seem quite earnest about supporting the 2A. I understand and share the concerns you have about unproductive OC demonstrations making other legislative efforts difficult or worse causing a roll-back of 2A rights.

The OC movement in Texas does not consist entirely of "bomb throwers" IMHO. Instead it appears to largely consist of a few radicals at the core, and many otherwise average Texans who see OC as an expression of their discontent with the direction of government and culture. It's much more about "Individual Liberty" than the specifics of OC, which is why it isn't going to go away with rational arguments about how demonstrations might bring about tighter restrictions.

Further, I agree the OC movement is quite small vs the number of Texans who support CHL. But I believe the OC movement is going to continue to grow as our general political and cultural situation continues in the direction it's going. As more Texans seek to show they have "had enough" they will be recruited into the OC movement. It's for this reason that it cannot be "brought under control" through marginalization by the rest of the 2A community IMHO.

Now I expect that guys who have been fighting the 2A fight inch-by-inch for years probably feel like the OCers are jumping on their train, and rightly so, but it's really a moot point. I think everyone needs to acknowledge the newcomers, invite them into the party, and ask them to come "assert their liberty" by OCing at a productive structured 2A event. The alternative is to have a radical-led OC movement that appears unfocused and unpredictable.

The message from the rest of the 2A community should be "OC is our fight too, come join us" instead of "you guys are ruining our party" IMHO. In this way the radicals can be marginalized and the growing interest in OC can be productively channeled into other 2A efforts.

OK, going to go practice some draws from concealment.

Perhaps the OCT crowd is an unknowning fifth column for the gun control crowd, or perhaps they just want to stir things up, or perhaps they really don't know what they are actually doing

stevem wrote:Great discussion. I hate to get into a point-by-point quotathon on my first day here, but you bring up a lot.

G.A. Heath wrote:Here's my take on the situation. The concept that we will win because the law and the constitution are on our side will lead to our defeat. It is the overconfidence that statement leads to that will get us.

Overconfidence in ourselves is a problem, overconfidence in what is moral and right is never a problem.

Unloaded Handgun OC was legal in California until the "In your face because its the law and the constitution" OC crowd pushed a little too far and their legislature outlawed handgun OC completely.

Totally different context, first off, Texas is (thankfully) not California. Second, as you pointed out, California already had OC on the books, there was no clear linkage between OC and what they were trying to accomplish. Whereas here in Texas the linkage is quite apparent: OCers want OC legalized.

Rallying against all OC demonstrators, accusing them of being a fifth column for gun control, and generally attempting to delegitimize their cause is certainly a stance AGAINST 2A RIGHTS. It's unproductive, and frankly those people who are on-board with these groups are quite willing and capable to go on OCing without your support. The pressure building in this nation is going to seek an outlet, and lawful OC is an appropriate outlet. It's not even at the level of "Civil Disobedience".

So at the end of the day what do you think will best further 2A rights? As I said earlier, not all OC demonstration is productive and good. But let's not needlessly weaken a legitimate 2A cause with general condemnation.

When someone chooses to OC a rifle but gets hooked up by the law for resisting arrest because they didn't think it through, let's call that out as unproductive.

When the leader of an OC group threatens a law enforcement officer, let's call that out as unproductive.

But we have to recognize that 2A supporters condemning the exercise of a 2A right is itself unproductive.