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mr1337 wrote:What I'm most concerned about is that a lot of anti-gunners advocate for enacting violence against open carriers and claiming they feared for their lives.
I don't know if any of them would have the guts to actually go through with it, it's just disturbing that these people who claim to be against gun violence are suggesting inciting it.

Can you provide a reference to anyone who is legitimately suggesting that people attack OCers on sight?

To me, this sort of fear is the same sort of stuff spun up by the "antis" - there will be blood in the streets, everyone wearing a gun belt, massive gun violence..... I just say - tell me what you see in Oklahoma... The answer is business as usual.

Texas1999 wrote: With all due respect, I don't think LEOs stop and detain people "all the time" without reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. Even if a cop does engage in such behavior, it is illegal and any competent criminal defense attorney can demonstrate that in court. It's a little known fact, but prosecutors keep lists of cops whose arrests and charges never seem to stick or who consistently make "legally questionable" arrests where the evidence gets suppressed, and those LEOs don't last very long in the profession.

I don't think it happens "all the time" either. I do completely disagree that any competent attorney can shred it in court. The burden is reasonable suspicion and it's trivially easy for a LEO to justify reasonable suspicion in a case where the only evidence is that of the LEO and that of the person who was stopped.

I think that if a LEO wants to stop you, he'll most likely find a reason to do so. How legal that stop is depends on a lot of factors.

How many LEO's are going to stand up and say "yea, I had no reason at all to stop him, it was just my spidey-sense..."

Also consider that in ANY of these cases that go to trial - the LEO found something or was able to charge someone with a crime. That's the word of a LEO against a "bad guy" that's been charged with a crime. How to do you think juries come out on that? You just need a hair of falsification and there is virtually no risk in providing it as a LEO. I know that my vehicles got searched (when I was younger) without a hair of reasonable suspicion or probable cause. I remember one 20 years ago where I was searched because I was speeding on I-35, which is a known "drug route"... Really? Yea, it happens. The stop for 5 mph over was valid. The search was completely bogus.

Lets just say it's a case where you're on the jury. And it's a LEO and one of these OCT guys? LEO says he had reasonable suspicion. OCT guy says he didn't. Who are you going to believe?

Body cameras stop a lot of this non-sense. Which is why I support them so much.

I think any OC legislation should make it abundantly clear that you cannot stop simply due to the presence of a firearm. You know it. I know it. Apparently it's an issue or we wouldn't see similar verbiage in other states that allow OC. I'd support a draft that doesn't have it, just to get it in the door, but yea, I think it's absolutely necessary.

Texas1999 wrote: The act of OC'ing, absent any other circumstances, would not give LEOs reasonable suspicion to detain you and investigate whether you have a CHL. This has been an issue in other states, where someone OC'ing is illegally detained and asked to ID himself to make sure he has a license, and/or is not a felon prohibited from possessing a firearm. Such detentions are illegal and unconstitutional, but it doesn't seem to stop LEOs from doing it and harassing law-abiding citizens.

You're a lawyer. Can a LEO pull me over while driving to make sure that I don't have an expired drivers license, assuming I've broken no laws? It's exactly the same thing.

This stuff (hopefully) will get harder and harder to pull as more PDs adopt body cameras and it's not so easy to make something up that might cover reasonable suspicion.

Also note that in other OC states, legislation often states explicitly that the mere presence of a firearm does not in and of itself warrant a stop.