TexasCHLforum.com

cb1000rider wrote:

Texas1999 wrote: The act of OC'ing, absent any other circumstances, would not give LEOs reasonable suspicion to detain you and investigate whether you have a CHL. This has been an issue in other states, where someone OC'ing is illegally detained and asked to ID himself to make sure he has a license, and/or is not a felon prohibited from possessing a firearm. Such detentions are illegal and unconstitutional, but it doesn't seem to stop LEOs from doing it and harassing law-abiding citizens.

You're a lawyer. Can a LEO pull me over while driving to make sure that I don't have an expired drivers license, assuming I've broken no laws? It's exactly the same thing.

This stuff (hopefully) will get harder and harder to pull as more PDs adopt body cameras and it's not so easy to make something up that might cover reasonable suspicion.

Also note that in other OC states, legislation often states explicitly that the mere presence of a firearm does not in and of itself warrant a stop.

No, LEO cannot stop and detain you just to "check and see" if you are committing a crime. They first must have reasonable suspicion to stop and detain you. So, no...LEO cannot pull you over just to "check and see" if you have an expired driver's license, or insurance, etc.

Now, if you're speeding, or committing any other traffic violation, they can stop you for the traffic violation, and while detained they can check to see if you have a valid license, valid insurance, etc. But they can't just pull you over for the hell of it. That's what we call a fishing expedition, and it's illegal and unconstitutional.

I truly hope that if "licensed" OC passes, the statute is amended to state that the open carrying of a firearm, in and of itself, does not give LEO reasonable suspicion or probable cause to stop and detain a person to see if he or she possesses a valid "license." Otherwise, I foresee law-abiding OC'ers with licenses being unconstitutionally harassed, and unlicensed OC'ers will get their charges thrown out because the LEO had no RS or PC to stop and detain them in the first place.

To stop and detain you and require you to produce a license, the LEO first would need reasonable suspicion to believe you do NOT have a license to OC. They cannot just randomly stop you and demand to see a license, just as LEO cannot randomly stop a vehicle to "check and see" if the driver has a driver's license.

As a side note, I'm a criminal defense lawyer, and I've handled (and won) many motions to suppress evidence based on a lack of reasonable suspicion or probable cause to detain an individual. Not bragging, I'm just saying I'm familiar with the requirements of the Fourth Amendment, and I can already foresee it being a headache for both LEOs and law-abiding citizens if licensed OC passes.

How will LEO know whether a person OC'ing is in fact licensed?

The act of OC'ing, absent any other circumstances, would not give LEOs reasonable suspicion to detain you and investigate whether you have a CHL. This has been an issue in other states, where someone OC'ing is illegally detained and asked to ID himself to make sure he has a license, and/or is not a felon prohibited from possessing a firearm. Such detentions are illegal and unconstitutional, but it doesn't seem to stop LEOs from doing it and harassing law-abiding citizens.

Imagine if you were driving down the road, breaking no laws, and a cop arbitrarily stopped you "just to check and see of you have a valid driver's license." That's an unconstitutional stop.

I foresee this being an issue if "licensed" OC passes.

Thoughts?