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frankie_the_yankee wrote:

NcongruNt wrote: The problem with that is that drawing a gun in and of itself is considered use of force, as threat of deadly force. It can be argued that you initiated the sequence of events that led up to the shooting if he goes for a gun you have already drawn, especially in a scenario where he is on the street.

Well, sure it can.

But like I said, we frequently take these things too far. Far too far in this case.

If he was just standing around soaking up sun it might be argued that you initiated a chain of events, etc. But if the guy is committing a property crime, and you order him to stop, and he advances towards you in a menacing way, and you draw (all in that order), you have initiated nothing.

It's impossible to fully describe every last detail in one of these scenarios. So sure, if the guy is calmly walking towards you while smiling beatifically, hands spread out at his waist, wearing a Roman Catholic collar and quoting from the Bible, TX law and Black's Law Dictionary in the way of explaining that what you thought was a property crime was actually his solemn obligation, you're in trouble. But that's not what any of us have in mind when we talk about ordering someone to stop committing a crime, and having them turn and advance on us.

I know that if someone was deliberately advancing on me, while emitting the requesite sights, sounds, and smells, I would fully believe that they intended to sieze the gun and harm me with it. I think almost any reasonable person would believe the same thing. And while I might try backing away and verbalizing so as to eliminate any possible misunderstandings about my reasonable belief, if the person got close enough to grab the gun I would certainly be in fear for my life at that point - unless they only weighed around 80 lbs or so.

Note: The above is more or less why (in other cases) I would generally try to retreat rather than standing my ground and defending myself from what would otherwise be simple assault. If you're grappling with someone and they "find" the gun, the whole nature of the situation has escalated tremendously.

Better to be thought a "chicken" than to have things spiral out of control.

Will938 wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:There is no allowance for what "might" happen if he gets your gun in a few minutes.

If he makes a move to take your gun by force, that should fall under "imminent commssion of...robbery"

If someone is advancing against a drawn gun, I'd certainly "resonably believe" that he intends to take it away by force. I'd probably still wait until the last possible instant to fire before he can gain any degree of control over the weapon, but I would be using that time to aim, continue verbalizing, and look for alternatives, and certainly wouldn't call anyone else's decision to fire at Tueller drill range unreasonable.