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WildBill wrote:

NcongruNt wrote:

WildBill wrote:How many people have more than one caliber of ammo in their nightstand drawer?

None of them are mistakable for the other, though.

At least not during the day, when you aren't under stress.

Well, a Hi-Power mag is certainly not going to be going into a LCP, or vice-versa. The LCP and PA-63 mags are somewhat close in size, but the only one that could mistakenly be inserted into the wrong gun is the LCP mag into the PA-63. Even then, the length is not sufficient to get a round into the chamber.

The PA-63 is kept in a lower drawer, while the other two sit up on top, so there's no mingling of magazines between the two smaller guns. The PA-63 is more of a last-ditch gun for me, or available to my girlfriend when she's there and I'm not home.

For my planned order of use, the 870 shotty or the Hi-Power are my primary go-to guns, with the LCP serving as a backup. The PA-63 is there if needed, but pretty much just visits the range every couple of months.

WildBill wrote:How many people have more than one caliber of ammo in their nightstand drawer?

Technically speaking, I do - however they are already loaded into mags. Double-stack Hi-power mags (9mm), single-stack PA-63 mags (9x18), and single-stack LCP mags (.380). None of them are mistakable for the other, though.

I do keep two boxes of carry ammo in my car - 9mm and .380.

The Annoyed Man wrote:

NcongruNt wrote:

WildBill wrote:Trying to use incorrect ammunition for a firearm is not just a mistake made by novice shooters - many experienced shooters have accidently loaded the wrong round in a firearm. Making sure that you pair the proper ammunition with the correct gun requires constant diligence, the same as making sure that your finger is off the trigger and your muzzle is pointed in a safe direction.

Especially for those of you who like foreign military rifles, there are many variations and varieties in rifle cartridges. Checking to verify compatibility of rifle ammunition is just as important as for pistols.

I agree that loading an incorrect round into a gun is not a mistake only made by novices. I stated that telling the difference between calibers (upon inspection) would be. Someone experienced with particular rounds would know the difference when identifying the rounds before loading them. Not paying enough attention to what one is doing is the common mistake in these situations, not the inability to tell the rounds apart. I think that a push for "constant diligence" - as you stated - is more practical and beneficial in ensuring firearms safety, rather than recommend people not get similar caliber guns. The emphasis on diligence when handling and loading firearms carries over to preventing mistakes in many more areas than just mistakenly loading the wrong round into a firearm.

A week ago, I took my wife to the range, and we were shooting pistols chambered in .45 ACP and .40 S&W. She was reloading a 1911 magazine and asked me which box to load from (since it didn't occur to her to read the box...). I pointed to the box on the left. What I didn't know was that about 2 minutes before, my son had switched the boxes around - I don't know why - and so my wife loaded that 1911 mag full of .40 S&W from the box on the left. Naturally, it stovepiped when she tried to drop the slide. Fortunately, they called a cease-fire just then, and it was while safe-ing the gun for her that I discovered the magazine loaded with the wrong cartridges.

Shame on me. I assumed the boxes were as I had left them, and since I was in the middle of doing something else, I didn't take time to read the box myself either.

I'm glad you and your wife were unharmed.

This situation is akin to checking a gun when picking it up. It is a very good practice to check the gun anytime it has been outside your direct control - there are several folks here that are so-called "press-check junkies" for this reason. You never know if the weapon has been handled or loaded/unloaded while you weren't looking, and checking the state of the gun as soon as you pick it up is a very good habit. The same thing applies to ammo, and making sure you're loading the right ammo into a gun is just as critical.

It seems you learned a lesson from this incident, and I thank you for sharing it with us. Stay safe!

WildBill wrote:Trying to use incorrect ammunition for a firearm is not just a mistake made by novice shooters - many experienced shooters have accidently loaded the wrong round in a firearm. Making sure that you pair the proper ammunition with the correct gun requires constant diligence, the same as making sure that your finger is off the trigger and your muzzle is pointed in a safe direction.

Especially for those of you who like foreign military rifles, there are many variations and varieties in rifle cartridges. Checking to verify compatibility of rifle ammunition is just as important as for pistols.

I agree that loading an incorrect round into a gun is not a mistake only made by novices. I stated that telling the difference between calibers (upon inspection) would be. Someone experienced with particular rounds would know the difference when identifying the rounds before loading them. Not paying enough attention to what one is doing is the common mistake in these situations, not the inability to tell the rounds apart. I think that a push for "constant diligence" - as you stated - is more practical and beneficial in ensuring firearms safety, rather than recommend people not get similar caliber guns. The emphasis on diligence when handling and loading firearms carries over to preventing mistakes in many more areas than just mistakenly loading the wrong round into a firearm.

mr.72 wrote:Whatever. I have personally watched a very experienced shooter absent-mindedly load about a dozen .32ACP rounds into a Sig P232 magazine and didn't realize the error until it wouldn't chamber a round. There is certainly a much more noticeable difference in size between a .380 and a .32 than there is between a 9x18 and a .380.

And by the way, I never suggested this was the only reason to limit the caliber selection. Sheesh. I guess some people just HAVE to argue. OK, you win. Only a blind idiot could mistakenly load a .380 into a 9x18 magazine. How's that?

Just to be clear here, I wasn't getting "defensive" in my post. I can't find anything in there that would indicate that I was. I was simply expressing my difference of opinion, and gave specific technical reasons why I did so. Never did I suggest it was the "only" reason why you choose to keep only 9mm handguns - though as we have already discussed, I did "infer" that you seemed to have it as a major reason - something I have since corrected in a follow-up post. You have not denied that suggestion, only stated that you made no such statement.

In the discussion of the technicals directly related to this post, I cited specific reasons why I believe that this should not be a limiting factor in choice of firearms, and you are as free to disagree with me as I am with you. I do not take constructive criticism as a personal attack, nor do I make my own critical statements as such. If you can give me solid reasoning to believe differently, I welcome your input. Simply pointing out that others have made mistakes because they did not pay sufficient attention to what they were doing is not a proper reason for me to limit the diversity of my own firearm collection, but rather reinforces my belief that one should always focus on the task at hand when handling firearms and ammunition, and eliminate habits that could put oneself in jeapordy.

If you want to call this arguing, then you are welcome to do so. I call it a civil discussion of opposing views. I'm not trying to "win" here. We are all here for positive discussion of firearms and CHL-related issues, and to learn from the experience of others. "Winning" would imply that individuals participating in a discussion are at odds for dominance over one another, and that is not what we do here.

mr.72 wrote:

NcongruNt wrote: your statement implied that mistakenly loading the wrong round was a major reason.

I implied no such thing. You inferred it.

Perhaps I did. My opinion still stands.

So what are some major reasons for only having 9mm handguns?

mr.72 wrote:Whatever. I have personally watched a very experienced shooter absent-mindedly load about a dozen .32ACP rounds into a Sig P232 magazine and didn't realize the error until it wouldn't chamber a round. There is certainly a much more noticeable difference in size between a .380 and a .32 than there is between a 9x18 and a .380.

And by the way, I never suggested this was the only reason to limit the caliber selection. Sheesh. I guess some people just HAVE to argue. OK, you win. Only a blind idiot could mistakenly load a .380 into a 9x18 magazine. How's that?

Guns should not be handled absent-mindedly, regardless of how experienced the shooter is. If you're afraid of having similar calibers because of absent-mindedness, I'd suggest expending the effort ensuring you remain focused when handling firearms.

Regardless of how many reasons you have for keeping only to 9mm, your statement implied that mistakenly loading the wrong round was a major reason. I stand by my opinion as expressed earlier in the thread. When I go to the range, I don't dump all my boxes of ammo out on the bench and pick the caliber rounds out as I need them. They stay in the box until they are ready to use. I check to make sure I am taking ammo from the proper box before I start loading up mags, and keep different calibers on separate parts of the bench.

I have loaded the wrong round into a gun once - it was a .40 in a .45 pistol. I was a novice at the time and did not own any handguns - I was trying out different guns in anticipation of buying one. I was given the incorrect caliber by the clerk at Red's. Being a novice, I did not know the difference by appearance between the two rounds when I was given them, and the boxes given to me were not marked. I learned that day to check my ammo and know what I am shooting. It did not deter me from having different caliber guns, but rather motivated me to be diligent in proper handling of my firearms.

mr.72 wrote:Loading 20ga shotgun shells into a 12ga and firing it is a recipe for disaster. The dude is very lucky the gun didn't kaboom in spectacular fashion.

This is a good reason to limit the calibers you have on hand. This is one reason why I only have 9mm handguns. It is easy to make a mistake. .380, 9mm, .40SW all look alike. If you are not really familiar with them then it could be a totally honest mistake to load the wrong thing.

Um. I think that's actually a poor reason to limit the calibers you have on hand. A good reason to do so would be for ammo compatibility between your weapons, and to simplify ammunition acquisition.

I can tell the difference between 9mm, 9x18, and .380 from each other simply from visual inspection. Even so, you only need to look at the headstamp to verify. I wouldn't call myself "really familiar" with them. I'm familiar enough to look at them and see the differences, and have been since I acquired the each of the guns and ammunition for their respective calibers. While they are similar in design, only a true novice (such as the friend in the story) would be unable to tell the differences between the calibers. The only time I've heard of an experienced shooter mixing up calibers was when all the rounds were thrown together in a box (such as reloaded rounds), and the shooter wasn't paying attention when loading the magazine.

EDIT: I took a picture to demonstrate this. I don't have a 20ga to compare to 12, but I do have 16ga. The difference between 12 and 20 will be even more pronounced.


From left to right: 12ga, 16ga, 9mm (9x19), 9mm Makarov (9x18), .380 ACP (9x17)

Now, to address your .380 vs 9mm apprehension: the bullets are a completely different shape, there's no mistaking the two. The 9mm is also considerably longer.

9mm Makarov and .380 are much closer, but there are noticeable differences here as well. The .380 bullet tip is elliptical in shape, while the Makarov bullet tip is spherical. The bullet on the Makarov is actually 9.27mm wide,with a 9.91mm case tapering slightly larger to 9.95mm at the rim. This gives the round a squatty look to it. By contrast, .380 bullet is 9.0mm wide, with a 9.5mm straight-walled case. Its appearance is more slim.