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Zoo wrote:"Seasons don't fear the reaper, nor do the wind, the sun or the rain." - Azulostra 14:2

The Azulostra cult certainly has had it's ups and downs. After the rise of the "Walken Heresy" the cult's leader, B. Dharma, has attempted to guide them back to the original sonic scripture, but has been disappointed in recent converts refusing to eschew the use of the "Walken", what a shame.

tbrown wrote:

03Lightningrocks wrote:I will refrain from entering the rule violating religion topic. I am surprised a mod hasn't put a stop to that argument yet.

From my point of view the discussion isn't/wasn't about faith. Belief or Disbelief in God or membership in a particular denomination, belief system, or religion didn't enter into it. It's about the redistribution of wealth, whether freely given as charity or extorted through taxation. One poster seemed to have a negative view of Catholicism that led to me posting facts about Catholic charitable organizations and as a disclaimer, my membership in the Church and an offer to share information.

Daisy Cutter wrote:Catholic Charities gets more than half of its revenue from the US taxpayer.

I don't have a problem with CC channeling money to good causes (perhaps at greater efficiency than a govt bureaucracy), however the recipients could very well believe that they are getting help from the church exclusively. This means the taxpayer is funding church allegiance.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charities_USA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Finances[edit]

Catholic Charities uses about 89% of its revenue for program costs.[4][10]
In 2010, Catholic Charities had revenues of $4.7 billion, $2.9 billion of which came from the US government. Only about $140 million came from donations from diocesan churches, the remainder coming from in-kind contributions, investments, program fees, and community donations.[11]

Catholic Charities USA is just one part of, and not even the largest, of the totality of Catholic charitable organizations in the U.S. and world wide. The dollar value of sustained aid at local/parish level for example, that never leaves the communities served is estimated at $12 billion annually.
Faith Based Organizations that are part of Catholic Charities USA are relatively new. They began during the Bush administration, for exactly the purpose you mentioned, greater efficiency. Compare admin costs of 11%, as stated in your Wiki citation, to the cost of Federal, State, and Muni bureaucracies to deliver the same aid. Over 50% of those admin costs are directly related to compliance with Federal mandates for record keeping and oversight.
You seem dismissive of the fact that Catholic Charities was only able to raise $1.8 billion in 2010 through it's own efforts. Please find another NGO delivering aid to the poor with a similar ability and record of accomplishment.

As to your concern about the "taxpayer" funding church allegiance, . The hoops the faith based NGOs have to jump through are as mind boggling in some respects as Sarbanes-Oxley is for publicly traded companies, and just as costly.

Faith Based Organizations are eligible to participate in federally administered social service programs to the same degree as any other group, like say ACORN, although certain restrictions and tremendously more oversight on FBOs that accept government funding have been created by the White House to protect separation of church and state.
They may not use direct government funds to support inherently religious activities such as prayer, worship, religious instruction, or proselytization.
Any inherently religious activities that the organizations may offer must be offered separately in time and/or location from services that receive federal assistance.
FBOs cannot discriminate on the basis of religion when providing services, nor can they associate aid with the church in anyway.
These restrictions are monitored by the GAO and audits both annual and surprise/unannounced are performed.

Tecumseh wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:

Tecumseh wrote:Why is it the most wealthy country/institution in the world, the Holy Roman Catholic Church, doesn't just take care of all the homeless and sick people? Why doesn't the local church down the street raise money for cancer patients and operate a homeless shelter after church services? Why should I be forced to do that with my tax dollars. Churches don't even pay taxes but keep the money they are gifted and don't even use it for good works. Just another reason that the tax system is not fair. Churches need to start coughing up money and doing their fair share.

Don't know what planet you've been on, but churches are already doing all that and more. How much of your money goes to take care of the poor? I can tell your a certain fact that churches (and their members individually) are the ones giving the most out of their own pockets to charity. Who do you think staffs organizations like the Union Rescue Mission.......Christians and other religious people, or atheists?

Churches are absolutely doing the charitable work that others won't do, and supporting that work through the funds they raise through the tithe and other gifts. If you can't see it, it's because you don't want to.

Please post some links to support your facts.

Here is some support that says atheists are more charitable than believers.

http://www.livescience.com/20005-atheis ... ssion.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/05/01/c ... evers-are/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... o-charity/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/05 ... us-people/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Interesting. My question is just why don't they shut down the churches or reduce the number of niceties and give to the poor? Just like when I see a welfare recipient with an iPhone and a 60 inch TV, I ask why they don't get rid of it if they need the money? Why don't churches stop their intense desire to have nice stuff if they claim they want to help others? I am sure somebody would be willing to buy some of the relics in Holy See.

Not really, 3 of the 4 articles all reference the same statistically and methodologically faulty study that was published in a for profit journal. While the "Sage Publishing" banner proclaims that their articles and studies are peer reviewed, when your peers are, as are you, incapable of being published in non-profit scientific journals, that have in the past and will in the future harangue the religious, such as "Nature" "Science" "JAMA" "The Lancet" any of the "Royal Society" journals and dozens more, you've really lowered the bar.
The 4th article claims that while the bible belt states on average give at much higher rate than other areas of the country, because they give to "churches" that invalidates the gift. What hokum. As I have illustrated in another post, you and the articles author, have absolutely no idea of the scope charitable work of "churches" and promote the idea that my donations to religious based charities go to "fatten the wallets" of televangelists and mega-church pastors, with zero proof.
Who should I donate MY money to? Rainbow Push? DNC? National Action Network? Organizing For America? ELF? Peta? ACLU? ACORN? RNC? GLAAD? PBS? NEA? as do the folks in the Northeast? Who benefits from these "charitable" donations? Tell me that donations to these organizations help the poor. Demonstrate the transparency of these organizations, hint 3 "leaders" of the organizations have become multi-millionaires, show me accounting reports, etc. anything that supports your claim.
As an aside, I've given to 2 of the organizations listed and will continue my support in the future.

Your attack on Catholicism, personal? Why? What is your affiliation/history with the church? I'm what is called a "Cradle Catholic" grew up in the church, been through all the sacraments except holy orders and extreme unction. The parish I was baptized in had 104 families as members, my Dad contributed a substantial portion of the parish's budget every year, as well as beef on the hoof for events and the pantry, I learned about charity from him. I've been an altar boy and extraordinary minister of the Eucharist, taught CCD, I'm a member of the KofC, SVdP Society, fried fish, flipped pancakes, boiled spaghetti, fried turkeys, helped build homes, counseled young marrieds on finances, stood as a sponsor for RCIA, etc. While I'm not anything or anyone special in my parish(everyone I know is busier that I am) I do have some knowledge of the Church, if you have questions I'd be happy to answer them or if I can't, find the answers or someone who can answer them for you.

Tecumseh wrote:Why is it the most wealthy country/institution in the world, the Holy Roman Catholic Church, doesn't just take care of all the homeless and sick people? Why doesn't the local church down the street raise money for cancer patients and operate a homeless shelter after church services? Why should I be forced to do that with my tax dollars. Churches don't even pay taxes but keep the money they are gifted and don't even use it for good works. Just another reason that the tax system is not fair. Churches need to start coughing up money and doing their fair share.

I'll assume that you speak from a lack of knowledge, not ill will.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Relief_Services

Catholic Relief Services has served in Haiti since 1954, CRS has committed to a $200 million, 5-year earthquake recovery program in partnership with more than 200 local organizations, focusing on community revitalization and shelter, health, water and sanitation, and protection

Catholic Relief Services donated $190 million dollars to fund a five-year relief and reconstruction effort to help 600,000 victims of the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake.

All while using the donations for relief not aggrandizement,

2011 Better Business Bureau/Wise Giving Alliance: CRS was found to meet all 20 Standards for Charity Accountability, which take into account an organization’s governance, financial accountability, truthfulness and transparency. The September 2011 audit found that only 2% of the CRS's expenses were for administration, leaving 3% for fundraising and 95% for program costs

Since it's formation the U.S. Catholic Bishops Overseas Relief Fund, now CRS, has through the donations of parishioners here in the U.S., distributed tens of billions of dollars in direct aid and assistance.
In addition:
http://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/wha ... /programs/ Good reading for you.
Catholic Campaign for Human Development (CCHD) is the domestic antipoverty and social justice program of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
Catholic Hospitals, like Christus,http://www.christushealth.org/CHRISTUSLegacy founded in San Antonio 150 years ago, provide low cost, free and needs based health care here in the U.S. as well as around the world.
Catholic Schools and Universities, supported by parishioner donations, educate children and young adults here in the U.S. as well as, once again, around the world. 244 Colleges and Universities in the U.S. alone,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ro ... ted_States
The Gabriel Project, http://www.gabrielproject.com/, supports expectant mothers and the unborn.
Society of St. Vincent De Paul, http://www.svdpusa.org/News/NewsReleases.aspx even the Red Cross donates. Why? 99% of donations go to those in need.
Shelters, Pantries, Kitchens http://www.stmartha.com/index.cfm?load=page&page=218 on a local level (to numerous to list) feed, clothe, and put roofs over the heads of millions, in Houston and once again World Wide.

That said, the primary work of the Catholic Church is the teaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Corporal and Spiritual works of mercy are an outgrowth of those teachings. http://www.caritas.org/