TexasCHLforum.com

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

SA-TX wrote:The reason I am convinced they wouldn't is that in working with VCDL, their saying in Richmond is "get yer own bill" and he has quoted this on many occasions. In fact, he told fellow OCDO members this when they wanted to use the open carry bill as a "fix everything that's wrong with TX firearms laws" catch-all. He preached the need for a narrow, simple bill. That it amended too many sections due to germaness is something I'm sure he was unaware of. Again, good intent but ignorant of some important features of our political landscape.

I'm very happy to hear that Mr. Stollenwerk is now taking this position, since it was he that said OCDO would amend their provisions to a "mainstream bill." He was quoted as saying this in a Fort Worth paper, Star-Telegram.com. Here is a link to the post quoting the article From your post, he now understands the potential negative impact an amendment can have on a bill, when the protection of the Texas germane rule is lost.

Chas.

Here is Mr. Stollenwerk's statement on a possible amendment:

Mike Stollenwerk wrote:Campaign asks Texans to support open-carry law for handguns
By ANNA M. TINSLEY
atinsley@star-telegram.com

. . .

Stollenwerk said a draft of a bill to allow open carry in Texas has been prepared.

While several Texas lawmakers have said they’ll support such a bill, none have stepped up to carry it.

"This is crunchtime before the session starts," Stollenwerk said. "If no legislator steps forward, we will try to amend a bill midstream to get it in somewhere."

Yes, that is a contridiction. That's why I wouldn't be a good spokesman or politician -- I don't like saying one thing privately (or as privately as an Internet forum can be) and something else publically. I guess we'll see what he does. So long as SOME Texas legislator introduces a bill we have something to work with. With bills to be introduced in Arkansas and SC, it would be a terrible shame if Texas doesn't have one given that we started the ball rolling.

SA-TX

Charles L. Cotton wrote: ...

I too wish you had a leadership role in the open-carry movement in Texas. You are a true statesman and your approach would go a long way to achieving the goal of open-carry. I also appreciate your plea for unity among all gun owners. This is always important, but with an Obama administration for at least four years and a markedly different Texas House of Representatives this session, it is absolutely critical!

As for expressing thoughts from the loyal opposition on OpenCarry.org, I intended to do precisely that several weeks ago. However, as Skiprr said, it appears that anyone who doesn't espouse either the goal or the methods of achieving them isn't welcome. Just as an example, there is a current thread on OpenCarry.org in the Texas section entitled "Arguments against the idiots." The original poster then offers responses to concerns that many people have about open-carry in Texas. That's more than just an insulting title, it's a pervasive attitude that shuns even words of caution, not to mention loyal opposition. I learned a lot from your post about OpenCarry.org's success in other states, primarily in law enforcement and judicial arenas. Perhaps I would have learned it sooner if there was not such a hostile attitude at OpenCarry.org that makes me feel about as welcome as Sarah Brady would be in my office. (I can also state that the NRA has had to clean up problems that were created when in-your-face tactics failed and caused actual or potential problems for gun owners.)

Another example of the attitude expressed by many OpenCarry.org supporters can be seen here on TexasCHLforum.com. Someone posted an article a few months ago setting out OpenCarry.org's plan to file their own bill. (I can't recall where the article was originally published.) The article went on to say that if a bill sponsor couldn't be found, OpenCarry.org would just amend another bill to add their provisions. I responded to the post pointing out that I hoped that was just "interview rhetoric" and not a real plan of action. With the stringent germane rule in Texas, it would be one of our bills that was amended and we (TSRA/NRA) would be forced to oppose the amendments to protect our own bills. A TexasCHLforum member who also posts on OpenCarry.org responded to my post saying the "not to worry" the decision was made not to amend any other bills. He went on to say, "This decision was not because of your threats. Wanted to let you know that you haven't scared anyone, OK?" Why make such a snotty response? As I noted in a later post, I wasn't trying to scare anyone, I was being open and candid about protecting our own bills and in so doing was providing valuable information to the OpenCarry.org folks. Would open-carry supporters have preferred not to have this information and then be blindsided if they did try to amend one of our bills? Open-carry supporters would really be screaming "treachery!" (Just as an aside, if one of our bills has a problem, we very rarely try to amend its provisions to one our own bills. It runs the risk of losing two bills instead of one. Yes, we've done it in the past, but only rarely and then only when the issue is absolutely critical.)

Your call for unity is one every gun owner should heed. We must understand that we will never agree on every issue, the sequence in which we try to achieve our goals, or perhaps even the methods we use. But attacking fellow Second Amendment supporters invokes the warning given in the Scriptures that a divided house must fall, and it puts a smile on Sarah Brady's face.

Chas.

Charles, I can tell you from other threads on OCDO that Mike Stollenwerk would be very unlikely to try to amend your bill or anyone elses. I don't know the who you corresponded with but only Mike and John (I forget his full name at the moment) officially speak for OCDO. Regardless, I agree that even members need to be courteous and respectful in communicating with others. Sadly, in Internet forums of all types, this is occasionally not observed. You've certainly had to remind a few of the rules a time or two.

The reason I am convinced they wouldn't is that in working with VCDL, their saying in Richmond is "get yer own bill" and he has quoted this on many occasions. In fact, he told fellow OCDO members this when they wanted to use the open carry bill as a "fix everything that's wrong with TX firearms laws" catch-all. He preached the need for a narrow, simple bill. That it amended too many sections due to germaness is something I'm sure he was unaware of. Again, good intent but ignorant of some important features of our political landscape.

As for being unwelcome on OCDO, the vocal few can be loud at times. Nevertheless, they need help to accomplish their goal in Texas. It is precisely because they are an upstart, grass-roots outfit that we see the lack of polish and perspective. You really are dealing with average Texans who work a regular job but due to their interest and willingness, give radio interviews when reporters call or have their picture put in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. It isn't a professional operation, but that's not a reason to shun it. That is a reason to HELP it.

50,000 Texans aren't wrong. Open carry is a idea whose time has come. If you would have told me six months ago that Governor Perry, Land Commissioner Patterson, Suzanna Hupp and others would go on the record as supporing open carry (licensed, perhaps, but still open carry), I wouldn't have believed it. OCDO simply promoted something that most 2A-supporting Texans can easily identify with -- less hassles to carry -- and publicized how out of touch Texas law is with the rest of the country. (Yes, "legal" and "widely practiced" are two different things, but I digress.) Initiative was taken. People were excited. Folks sent in checks and pretty soon radio ads, taxies, and billboards swept across Texas. When was the last time something like that took place when it truly was something coordinated by average citizens with very little political experience? The governor and the others HAD to go on the record because constitutients were writing to them and news outlets were calling.

Yes, some adult supervision may be needed over there at times so lets provide it. I don't care who gets credit as long as Texas gun owners win. The publicity and high-profile support (at least in principle) should expedite some of the usual trial balloons you launch to gauge palatability. Most of the politicians that you'll be working with have probably already been asked about open carry if not taken a position on it. OCDO made open carry an issue in Texas by raising awareness in an unprecedented way. If that is to be their role, that of the runner who leave the blocks well, and some other group can take the baton and finish the race, I'll be a happy man. Charles, please do not let the efforts of many fail due to political clumsiness or a few intemperate posts. You are in a unique position to do a great service for the people of Texas. You may not have given birth to this idea or initally nursed it, but you are in the position to give it the best chance of success!

SA-TX

Skiprr wrote:SA-TX, thank you.

The rhetoric I've seen to date from OpenCarry.org has been single-minded, obstinate, and argumentative.

Convince OpenCarry.org that you need to assume the role of national spokesperson.

Without a thoughtful, measured voice before the public, OpenCarry.org stands to do more harm than good. And it stands also to alienate tens of thousands of Texas concealed handgun licensees, hunters, and recreational shooters who have fought and voted for the Texas laws we have today.

We can't afford to move backward in the 81st legislature. Our firearm laws have been moving appreciably forward in every legislative session for almost two decades.

Despite the over-zealous opinion of a Virginia law student (or two) we in Texas enjoy some of the most firearm-friendly laws and privileges in the United States. And that's thanks to dedicated folks like Charles Cotton, Joe Driver, Jim Dark, Alice Tripp, and others.

...

Skiprr,

Thank you for the kind words but you give me too much credit and, perhaps, the good folks at OpenCarry.org too little. As I mentioned, I think there has been a lack of perspective from all camps at times. Yes, some of the more staunch folks advocate for nothing less than Vermont/Alaska style freedom. On the other hand, some Texas gun owners seem to think that as long as the legislature hasn't taken away their shotgun or 30.06, all is well. Unlike either of those those groups, I think the overwhelming majority of members at OCDO, VCDL, NRA-ILA, GOA, and the this website, to name a few, are a mix of idealist and pragmatist. They know what the 2A should mean but understand that we didn't get where we are overnight and we won't fix it in a day either. If Charles and others didn't have some amount of Don Quitxote in them, how could they have taken on Ann Richards, Jim Mattox, and others who continued to move Texas in the wrong direction. After 100 something years, few seemed ready to do the work necessary to change it. Given that display of idealism -- that Texas really could have a strong, shall-issue CHL system -- I completely understand the realism about what we could get done each session since. Our task is to channel our energies and compromise/horse trade when we must, but also never give up the dream because that's what drives us forward. Remember, Alaska isn't like Vermont, which has never had any carry laws. A CHL system was created and, even more recently, it was made optional so that carry -- concealed or openly -- is legal without government sanction. It can be done.

I assure you that Col. Stollenwerk (the "overzealous law student" to whom you refer) is a much better spokesman than I would be. While he may not be well-versed in Texas politics, we should teach him. He has been a very dedicated 2A advocate for many years including having been a plantiff in a federal case in Pennsylvania that got their SSN requirement removed for LTCF applications. My point isn't to defend him or anyone else but to ask that all 2A supporters work together as much as possible. As I have been a member and supporter of this group, Packing.org (before its demise) as well as OpenCarry.org, I would encourage those of you who think that OCDO should approach the issue differently to join and make your opinions heard. There is no monolith, Borg-like control over there. Everyone gets to have their say and activities don't happen without local support.

In addition to speaking up, however, I hope you'll listen too. If you do, you'll see that very direct "in your face" advocacy seems to work well in "Live Free or Die" New Hampshire. In Virginia, public officials and police agencies have been held accountable for their occasional line crossing by VCDL. GeorgiaCarry has been very successful in using Georgia and federal law to correct abuses there. In Ohio, local ordinances and arrests have been successfully challenged and a favorable OH Supreme Court ruling was obtained. In WA, revised bulletins have been issued to make officers more aware of the fact that open carry is legal and how to handle encounters with open carriers. Even in California, believe it or not, there are directives being issued by DAs and police departments very recently that finally admit that CA statutes and appeals court rulings confirm that unloaded (but ammo can be close by) open carry in incorporated cities is perfectly legal and that, once no violation of the unloaded rule is found, federal Terry stop case law instructs that the person must be released without unreasonable delay.

Again, I am not suggesting that these strategies are the right ones for Texas. I am simply asking those who are not familiar with these activities to educate themselves about their impact and effectiveness in the given environment. I trust Charles and the others who have been doing the heavy lifing here for many years. I am confident that they are doing things the right way. That doesn't mean that the others are wrong in their localities.

Texas can't afford fighting amonst pro-gun groups. If OCDO needs a better bill, let's all work to make it happen. If they need to be educated as to the political realities here, I'm all for that. If Rep. Riddle's bill is the best game in town, so be it. Let's not criticize each other but rather work to make the other's pro-2A projects a reality. We all stand to gain, or lose.

It is hard to get 50,000 signatures in Texas for anything. It maybe a record (total speculation -- feel free to correct me). Regardless, it is darn impressive in a relatively short period of time. The money raised for the radio, taxi, and billboard ads are from the grass roots. As far as I know, there is no big foundation or multimillionaire funding the operation. The money comes from Texans and others across the nation who want to help. The fact is, OCDO has a very heavy concentration of Texans so don't be fooled by its Virginia headquarters. Col. Stollenwerk owns a house near Fort Hood from when he was stationed there. The spokesmodel, Lori, is from Houston. The petition founder, Ian, lives in Texas and I do not believe he was even associated with OCDO when he placed it online. To a surprising extent, you are talking about fellow Texans when you talk about OCDO, especially if you are talking about activities here. They have all been locally coordinated.

My request to all Texas gun owners is get in the game and support all reasonable pro-2A initiatives. I'm not a hunter, but I assure you I support the rights of sportsmen. I don't own a .50 caliber gun but I would be 100% against any ban legislation as is happening elsewhere. Please be generous with your support even if you will not necessarily benefit. There is great debate about the virtues of concealed carry versus open carry and even many OC supporters aren't sure they would avail themselves of the option, once legal. The key is that they would have a choice. We know there are many CHL holders who don't carry regularly -- but they can if they want to. Isn't that really what we all want? The freedom to approach these issues as adults and make decisions.

I hope all will join me in supporting the fine work of Charles but also of others in the community. Less = better in Texas.

SA-TX

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

Conagher wrote:Hi Chas.

A question if you don't mind; you may or may not be able to answer: If open carry does not pass in the legislator this session, will TSRA be supporting it in the next session; thus allowing ample time for the prep work you describe?

Thanks!

I don't want to make it appear that I have more decision making authority than I do. While I'm Vice-Chairman of the TSRA Legislative Committee, I'm only one vote on the Committee. As an NRA Board Member, I have input on our legislative efforts, especially in Texas, but I certainly don't have command authority or veto power.

With that disclaimer , about all I can say is that we respond to our members. If enough of them want to see open-carry pass, and if they feel it is of greater importance than other issues, then I suspect we'll take on the project. I think some people feel that Alice Tripp, James Dark and I put our personal opinions ahead of the organizational goals and that simply isn't true. If it were true, I would have pushed a number of different issues over the last two sessions. I have very strong reservations about the backlash I believe we will see, if open-carry passes. However, if the TSRA membership wants us to take on this issue, then I'll put my personal concerns aside and I'll work hard to get it passed. This assumes that others haven't done so much damage to our friends in Austin this session that we have to stay away from the issue.

I hope this answers your question.

Chas.

Well put Charles. I think all of us would do well to remember who our friends are. Collectively we, the pro-2A community, should advance our cause by working effectively with everyone who will work with us. Let not the good be the enemy of the perfect. No matter our differences in tactics or style we should support each other to the extent that we can. The best means for achieving our common goals probably vary from state to state. As you mention, that which has been effective for VCDL or for GeorgiaCarry, for example, may not be the best approach in Texas. "In your face" tactics seem be have been very effective in some cases while tireless, behind-the-scenes work has advanced the ball in others. There may not be a one-size-fits-all solution.

As you know from prior posts, I'm a member of and contributor to OpenCarry.org but I've also been a member here for quite some time. Your excellent explanation about the workings of TSRA and the NRA is much appreciated. TSRA's thorough vetting process of ideas and legislation is wise and is a credit to the organization. No doubt you are correct when you say that it is for this reason that legislators trust it and that trust must be safeguarded. I'll admit to having wished at times that TSRA was faster in achieving the success that we all want, but slow progress is better than hasty failure. That Texans were disarmed for so long and still labor under many unnecessary restrictions probably feeds the frustration you've seen in some posts.

You, TSRA, and the NRA have done a tremendous amount of good work in Texas over the past decade. While I hope and suspect that the "open carry horror stories" that you fear will not come true, given your sterling reputation and knowledge of Texas gun politics, I take those concerns very seriously. In gratitude for the past efforts and in common cause with you for the ongoing initiatives, I have joined TSRA by purchasing a Life Membership.

I'm convinced that we can, and should, achieve those items on TSRA's agenda as well as some form of open carry this session. I agree that reducing the areas where CHL-holders can't carry (employer parking and college campuses, among others) is the top priority but I don't think we should fail to pursue any pro-2A initiative when given an opportunity to do so. The ugly fact is that time may not be on our side and it remains to be seen how responsive future legislators will be. While all of the abovementioned preparation should be done, I hope we will not pass on an opportunity to notch another success while we have a very pro-2A governor in addition to our friends in the House and Senate. That is a winning combination.

Please use my TSRA membership donation in pursuit of those goals and I'll be happy to assist in any way that I can.

Thanks, SA-TX