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srothstein wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:49 pm Some interesting problems for the shooter, including that he was potentially violating the law by working as a security officer. Not certified and not in uniform according to the media. I don't think they considered he might have been a personal protection officer, which lets him work that way. I don't know how that will come into play with the city ordinances they refer to.

What may help or hurt the shooter was the initial use of force by the shootee (I can't say victim yet because I don't know if the shooting was justified or not yet). The first slap appears to be the initiation of force, and the reason for it will make a big difference in the case. Laws on self-defense say you cannot claim it if the initiator has clearly stopped the fight and is trying to leave, but the spray of mace (or whatever) brings that claim into doubt also.

chamberc wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:19 pm Easily, and just as if someone had try to disable you in another way. For a Jury, the defendant will have to convince them if had reasonable fear for his life that if disabled he might be on the end of deadly force himself.

I agree that this is a possible defense. It is how police are trained to justify their shootings when someone uses a taser or OC on them.

Edit to add: All in all, this is a murky situation and I urge everyone on both sides to not jump to conclusions just based on one side or the other's political beliefs agreeing or disagreeing with our own.

Some interesting problems for the shooter, including that he was potentially violating the law by working as a security officer. Not certified and not in uniform according to the media. I don't think they considered he might have been a personal protection officer, which lets him work that way. I don't know how that will come into play with the city ordinances they refer to.

What may help or hurt the shooter was the initial use of force by the shootee (I can't say victim yet because I don't know if the shooting was justified or not yet). The first slap appears to be the initiation of force, and the reason for it will make a big difference in the case. Laws on self-defense say you cannot claim it if the initiator has clearly stopped the fight and is trying to leave, but the spray of mace (or whatever) brings that claim into doubt also.

chamberc wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:19 pm Easily, and just as if someone had try to disable you in another way. For a Jury, the defendant will have to convince them if had reasonable fear for his life that if disabled he might be on the end of deadly force himself.

I agree that this is a possible defense. It is how police are trained to justify their shootings when someone uses a taser or OC on them.

philip964 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:36 pm https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/cop ... -minority/

Protestors in PA demand that if the attacker is a minority, police should not be permitted to defend themselves.

I think the original article was written as a condemnation of the protests by putting their apparent desires in wording. The desire was never stated by protesters and is just a conclusion based on the incidents provoking riots. I would say they also don't like citizen self-defense either.

And that says everything any reasonable person would need to know about the leftist movements.

Soccerdad1995 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:45 pmBut back to dogs specifically, does he realize that people originating in one of the 2 "allowable" regions had white skin?

Yeah, I was wondering if he had ever heard of the term Caucasian and knew where it came from.

philip964 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:36 pmHave the DA’s decided law and order is something they like now?

Yep, they decided that right after the Biden campaign admitted the polls showed the riots were helping Trump. It just took a few days for the word to trickle down all the way.

eyedoc wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:14 pm A hand cranked Gatling gun is legal.

That might make for an interesting legal case. If a hand cranked Gatling gun is legal, why would an electrically cranked one not be legal? I know the answer under the current law would be that the electric button would be the trigger, but under the concept that the law should make sense this is a good question.

03Lightningrocks wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:48 pmIMHO, it does not matter if the thug had a weapon or not. He resisted arrest. He got himself shot for resisting arrest.

As a retired police officer, I must strongly disagree with this. The law does not allow the police to shoot people for just resisting arrest. There is a certain amount of force allowed to be used to effect an arrest. The police may escalate the force needed if the suspect actively resists. The police may not shoot until there is a threat of deadly force against them or unless there is probable cause to believe that the person poses a greater threat to society if he escapes than the threat to society of violating his rights.

I firmly believe we must hold the police to the law. If we allow the police to violate the law indiscriminately, we lose all hope of maintaining a free society.

I agree that the people who are being pointed out as the cause of most of these riots all resisted arrest. Almost all of these deaths were legally justified. But not all of these deaths were justified. In recent months, we have the case of Breonna Taylor being shot without resisting arrest and unjustifiably (IMO and from what the media has reported). Further back, we have cases such as the "drug sellers" in Houston. We have cases such as Shaver being shot five times while crawling towards the police as ordered.

The media is not reporting this and is the primary cause of the riots, IMO. We need to be aware of the cause of the riots, what the movement is attempting to do, and who is supporting it. While we fight this revolution, we also need to not let our guard slip and allow the police to commit murder or we all lose.

philip964 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:41 pmKenosha Police association releases vital details on Jacob Blake shooting.

“Here are the actual and undisputed facts:

I will not dispute these statements since I was not there. From the videos and pictures I have seen, I do believe these are the actual facts of the situation.

But I want to point out that the statement that these are the "actual and undisputed" facts is not necessarily true. These are the statements from one side of the issue. If they were truly undisputed, Blake would already have plead guilty. I don't like when the media lies, so I have to call out the improper wording of the police association. As an additional point, I would also say that if these were the undisputed facts that the investigators believe, we would see a statement from the police department, not just the police association.

crazy2medic wrote: ↑Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:47 pm There is clear video evidence showing the kid running away, a gunshot (not his) and the guy following him throwing something at him

A Flaming something !

There have been more videos released that show the object thrown better. The guy through something, but it wasn't flaming. It was a plastic bag and the reflections of it fluttering made it look like a fire. I do not know what was inside the plastic bag and have not found any sources saying what it was. Clearly there was some type of weight in the bag to get it through the air. This does not disprove it was a liquid with a lit fuse in it, but a plastic bag won't burst and spread the fuel like a Molotov Cocktail.

And, IMO, it does not lesson the self-defense factor either. If someone is attacking me with a weapon, I get to defend myself. If it doesn't work the first time, I do not have to give him time to get a second chance to make it better.

While I think the shootings were justified, the media is obviously upset and disagreeing. They are calling the kid a vigilante and a fugitive. They are also saying he fled the state to avoid prosecution. He has been arrested at his home and charged with first degree murder.

How do you become a fugitive when most of the videos clearly show him surrendering himself to the police right after it happened? I have no faith in the local federal prosecutor not trying to charge him with interstate flight, a federal crime. They have done a lot worse when they did not agree with the local prosecutors or juries.

Paladin wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:46 amGraphic breakdown of various videos confirm these 3 shootings were all good shoots:

That was my tentative conclusion also. The media were calling them "armed private militias" and saying they were guarding against arson again. I translated that to be a bunch of citizens who said we have had enough.

At least one of the shootings was clearly self-defense. The citizen with the rifle had been attacked by a mob and taken to the ground. One of the rioters hit him in the head with a skateboard. He opened fire and hit the attacker in the chest. I am confident that this was justified. The guy shot in the arm was clearly carrying a pistol. He was wearing a hat claiming he was a paramedic. When he rushed up on the guy with the rifle, I don't know if his intent was to shoot him or provide medical attention, but I never heard of paramedics running anywhere with guns drawn.

Well, now we have a whole new level to the protests. What happens when the police start to protest?

About an hour after the Fulton County DA announced murder charges that could include the death penalty for an officer who shot a suspect, the police officers started walking off the job. Word in some of the forums I am in says that the department is unable to handle calls over the whole city and was over 500 calls being held and not dispatched. They asked other agencies for help and were told no. Fulton County said they could not spare any officers because they are patrolling the unincorporated areas, State troopers are handling accidents only, neighboring cities and counties said they don't trust the Fulton D.A. and won't send their men into that county.

The city says there are some people who walked off and a higher number of people calling in sick but they are handling all calls and no drop in safety. Mayor asks police officers to remember their commitment to the community and acknowledges morale is way down.

Here is one article on it:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/17/us/raysh ... index.html

My personal opinion is that the truth on how many walked off or called in sick is probably somewhere between the two sides. I have no doubt that this is impacting the number of calls being handled. Nationally, a lot of officers are complaining about the responses to the protests and the general treatment of the police. Most acknowledge the need for some changes, but think the response is being overblown. This might get bad if leaders don't listen to both sides equally.

I never thought about applying it to this point, but I do understand why Parabellum is right about things happening every day and not getting reported. There is an old precept that the news must report the unusual and not the usual. If it happens every day, it is not news. The explanation given in journalism school is that "dog bites man" is not news but "Man bites dog" is. This is part of why the media drives cases of police shooting balck men so much. They are the rare cases so they make the news. This is why the average murder in Chicago is not covered and we are not surprised by the number of murders there.

When I first heard the case in Atlanta, it was a news report that the Chief of Police had resigned over it. And it was no a full resignation, just from the position of Chief. She is still employed by the city. I read the details and asked why there was any question about that shooting. Every step of it was handled as correctly as possible by the officer involved, as far as I can tell. The mayor fired him, with no investigation, just because it was a shooting. We can effectively right off Atlanta now. It will burn again, and this time it isn't a Yankee general doing it. Somehow, I see most of the cops will stop being proactive and doing their jobs. Anyone who resists in any way will be allowed to run off. No punishment for criminals means they will continue to commit crimes.

Should someone note that we now have an official position from Atlanta and the media that Tasers are not lethal weapons? The mayor said they should not have shot him because he was not armed with a lethal weapon. Weren't they protesting a couple years ago how many people got killed by Tasers? Of course, consistency in the media would be news, so no one will comment on this lack thereof.

Paladin wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:00 pm All lives matter, and everyone knows I am a strong supporter of justice, but to put the BLM protests in perspective:

As a technical correction, that may or may not make a significant difference in the statistics (but will change it some), BLM is not protesting the number of Blacks killed by Whites, They are protesting the number of Blacks killed by Blues, that is blacks killed by the police. They tend to see police as all one race, such as ignoring the fact that of the officers involved in the George Floyd case, one officer was White, one was Hispanic, one was Asian, and one was Black.

And as much as I hate to admit it, there is at least some statistical basis for their complaint. While police kill many more white people each year, they do kill Blacks at a rate far larger than the proportion of Blacks in the population. Of course, to do a proper analysis, we would have to have quite a bit more information, such as how many Whites and Blacks are contacted by police, how many are arrested, how many resist arrest, and maybe the charges for which they are initially stopped and later arrested. I do not believe that the police are systemically racist, but I have little doubt that the criminal justice system overall (including the laws passed, the enforcement of the laws, and the bail set and trials for breaking them) is systemically classist, discriminating against the poor. Historically, it has been almost impossible to measure class (by economic status) in the US without measuring race also. This has been changing over the past 2 decades, but it is slow change.

So, the real question is if I have a system that discriminates against the poor, and blacks are disproportionately represented amongst the poor, am I discriminating against Blacks also? I think we may need to look at reforming some aspects of the criminal justice system, starting with repealing a bunch of laws. Defunding the police is definitely not the answer though.

I am unable to fully verify this as shown. The mainstream media seem to be ignoring it. I found a change.org petition demanding that Memphis police do something about this, and a single youtube video with the new clip. In that video, the man picks up the dog by the scruff of its neck and holds it up in the air. I cannot confirm that this has anything to do with the other picture in the screenshot of the dog wrapped up in wire. In the comments of the youtube clip, there is a link to a twitter thread on this where they claim the dog was stolen from a rescue and then hung from the fence of the rescue. There is also a claim that they beat up a person walking the dog to steal it.

Following links, I found a twitter thread that is from one of the local reporters saying there is no evidence the dog was killed, it seems to be reported from someone in Florida who says she heard it from a friend.

So far, the closest I can come to this is verifying the dog was picked up by the loose skin on its neck. While this probably counts as abuse, I cannot say it is torture as I would normally think of it. The rest seems to be the standard exaggeration that quickly goes into most internet stories. I will point out that there are a lot of people right now trying to make the protesters look angelic or demonic, and a lot trying to do the same things with cops. And politicians are quick to blame all the troubles with riots on "outside agitators" from either the extreme right or left, depending on whether the politician is Republican or Democrat.