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by srothstein
Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:38 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: No CHL and traffic stop while carrying in vehicle.
Replies: 121
Views: 14457

Re: No CHL and traffic stop while carrying in vehicle.

WildBill wrote:
srothstein wrote:No, the law is clear that the authority to carry is irrelevant to the duty to show. No matter how you are carrying, if you have a CHL and a gun on or about your person, you must show the CHL and DL/ID when asked for ID by a peace officer. If a peace officer has a pistol and a CHL, he must show the CHL. If the person is in a car or in his house and has a gun on his person and is asked for ID, he must show the CHL.
What if you have your Texas CHL and your Utah CFP. If you are carrying [in Texas] and show only your Utah CFP are you breaking the law?
That is an interesting question. I am going to guess that you would be breaking the law. Here is my reasoning:

1. The terms license and license holder are not truly defined in the government code.
2. The law says a license holder will show his license.
3. This is all in a chapter dealing with our licenses.
4. A Utah license is not the license as the term is generally referred to in the chapter (411).
5. Therefore, you are required to show your Texas CHL.

As an interesting side note, my read has a side benefit to your Utah CHL. If youa re a Texas resident and have a Utah CHL but not one from Texas, you are not a license holder under the terms of this section. You would not need to identify or notify the LEO.

But a lawyer might see it differently.
by srothstein
Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:36 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: No CHL and traffic stop while carrying in vehicle.
Replies: 121
Views: 14457

Re: No CHL and traffic stop while carrying in vehicle.

Elvis wrote:
Now, I have to admit that the the law about showing us your CHL does not specify just when under the authority of your CHL. If that is what you meant (and it was in that context), the law is explicit that it applies if you have a CHL and a pistol on or about your person. It says nothing about authority. If I have a peace officer's license and badge, and a CHL, I would still be bound to show the CHL, even as i tell them i am also a cop.
Then are you saying there is no requirement for a CHL holder to notify the Officer if they are carrying in their vehicle because they now fall under the exception in 46.02?
No, the law is clear that the authority to carry is irrelevant to the duty to show. No matter how you are carrying, if you have a CHL and a gun on or about your person, you must show the CHL and DL/ID when asked for ID by a peace officer. If a peace officer has a pistol and a CHL, he must show the CHL. If the person is in a car or in his house and has a gun on his person and is asked for ID, he must show the CHL.

And if someone gives me a CHL, I am going to assume he has a weapon too. It just seems to make sense to me that he would carry if he can.
by srothstein
Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:01 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: No CHL and traffic stop while carrying in vehicle.
Replies: 121
Views: 14457

Re: No CHL and traffic stop while carrying in vehicle.

Elvis wrote:
the number say the officer is much more likely to be shot at by a non CHL[/quote]

No the numbers say the Officer is much more likely to be shot by a gun. After the fact the investigation will find out if the person had a CHL or not. The Point Is, everyone we come into contact with that is armed should be treated as a threat to our safety until the Officer is satisfied that you are not a threat.[/quote]


Elvis, as one peace officer to another, this post and your post about a man with a gun bother me too. I am also a gun guy and have some trouble with this logic.

I understand what you are saying as a peace officer and I think it came across wrong. When you are surprised by a gun at a scene, you need to react for safety. But, at the same time, you also take into account other factors than just a man with a gun, even if you do so subconsciously. You look at where the gun is and what the person is doing (reaching for it or ignoring it, etc.). You even take into account how the person is dressed and acting. I know you do, even when you do not realize it because I train cops for a living. Proof that you do this is simple. What do you do when you stop another cop? I have never told another officer that I have a gun. I have asked if it does any good if I am a cop and I assume he would know I am carrying from that, but that is very rarely right at the start. I get it done as quickly as possible but not trying to seem like I am demanding proivileges I am not entitled to. When is the last time you were stopped and told the other officer explicitly that you were armed (and I do know some cops do just that)?

With the new laws on the books, all of us working in law enforcement better get more used to seeing guns and not panicking at the mere sight. A CHL must tell us, but a traveler never had to. Now, a person can legally have a concealed gun in the car and not tell us at all.There is a chance we might see it by accident and they don't need to have a CHL or tell us first. If you automatically draw on a person who is not breaking the law and not actively threatening you, you might have some explaining to do. As a Chief, how are you going to explain to that citizen who is coming in to complain about your officer doing just that?

An on a different note, I think we may have a difference of opinion on the law. You said in one post that a person with a CHL is always carrying underr the authority of the CHL when the pistol is on or about his person. This, IMHO, is clearly not the case if they are in a car, even if the gun is in a hip holster. As I understand it, a CHL only gives authority when the carrying would otherwise be illegal. Since the law was changed and it is no longer a violation of PC 46.02 to carry in a car, the CHL is not giving authority until they step out of the car. This may be a serious legal question if they are driving into a parking lot that is posted for 30.06. That law only applies when carrying under the authority of a CHL.

As proof that you CAN choose which authority you are carrying under, consider the cops who also have CHL's (it gets them through the NICS check for one thing). Which authority to carry are they using?

Now, I have to admit that the the law about showing us your CHL does not specify just when under the authority of your CHL. If that is what you meant (and it was in that context), the law is explicit that it applies if you have a CHL and a pistol on or about your person. It says nothing about authority. If I have a peace officer's license and badge, and a CHL, I would still be bound to show the CHL, even as i tell them i am also a cop.
by srothstein
Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:12 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: No CHL and traffic stop while carrying in vehicle.
Replies: 121
Views: 14457

Re: No CHL and traffic stop while carrying in vehicle.

Elvis (and Lunchbox),

The correct answer to when you must identify is contained in PC 38.02 - Failure to identify. This law says you must identify yourself when you are under arrest. This includes providing your correct name, home address, and date of birth. It does not say you have to produce physical ID, and verbal does meet the law.

In addition, it specifies that you cannot give false information when you are detained, suspected of a crime, or a witness to a crime. In those cases, you can decline to identify but cannot provide false information if you do answer.

An just as an aside so everyone knows, the Court of Criminal Appeals has ruled that a traffic stop IS an arrest, even if you are then let go with just a verbal warning. This was in a decision styled State v Kurtz (IIRC) in 2004.

A Game Warden is a peace officer (as stated in another post), as are park rangers. I believe that the game laws require you to also provide a DL or ID when you are asked for your hunting or fishing license if engaged in one of those activities. In these cases, you must also present your CHL.

I think most of the people in this forum have no problem with identifying or telling officers they are carrying. Most freely admit that they would give their CHL even when they are not carrying. I think the complaint is not truly about telling the officer about the weapon, but the complaint is about the idiocy of the requirement applying to one group when the rest of the state can legally carry and need not tell them. I agree that the rule is outmoded and the law should be repealed.

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