TexasCHLforum.com

by AndyC » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:14 pm

stroo wrote:
The inherent safety of the gun, and different guns are more or less inherently safe, does not depend on who's handling. The safety of the person with the gun and those around him or her does depend on who is handling the gun regardless of the gun.

"So some guns just go off by themselves but not others? Is it just me or do those two sentences contradict one another? I'm not sure what your point is, so please clarify."

While we agree on many things, the heart of our disagreement seems to be whether some guns are inherently less safe than others.

While guns do not go off by themselves, some guns are more susceptible to handling errors than others and therefore are less safe.
For example a single action revolver needs to be carried without a round in the chamber but a double action revolver can be carried with a round in the chamber. Why? Because a SA revolver if dropped with a round in the chamber may very well go off. It is less safe.
A 1911 with a 2 lb trigger is great for competition, but most people would not consider it as "safe" for carry as a 1911 with a 5 lb trigger.
Indeed you claim that Glock's are more drop safe than 1911s.
And in the end you appear to agree with me that Glock's are more susceptible to having things get caught in a trigger and going off than 1911s are.

Can you carry any gun safely? Probably. But some take a more training and care in handling than others do to carry safely. Those that require more training and care in handling are inherently less safe.

"So, respectively 5 and 3 times longer trigger-pull than the 1911, then? That's kind of my point as to why I would have no issue carrying them chambered in the absence of a thumb-safety. You, of course, may feel differently but that's fine - doesn't affect me in any way "

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah. Take the best numbers for your case and ignore the rest. I understand.

I don't like carrying without a thumb-safety period but if I do carry without a thumb safety, I want something that really does have a long hard trigger pull. Glock's and M&Ps just don't have a long, hard trigger pull. You are fooling yourself if you think they do, but as you say, that's fine - doesn't affect me in any way.

Just to be clear, I am not advocating carrying a 1911 or Hipower with the safety off. What I am saying is that there is no significant difference between carrying a Glock/M&P and carrying a 1911 or Hipower with the safety off. If something gets in the trigger of any of these guns, like your finger, the gun is going to go off. However if something gets in the trigger of a 1911 or Hipower with the safety on, the gun isn't going to go off. That's my point as to why I don't like carrying a gun without either a thumb safety or a true long and hard pull like a Sig. But each to his own.

BTW, I also recognize that there are valid reasons having nothing to do with safety for carrying a Glock or M&P. If you are concerned that you may forget to take the safety off and shoot a Glock or M&P better than a Sig, a revolver or other true DA, then you should carry the Glock or M&P. Just understand that you should always use a holster and you need to be more careful when you do holster. I pocket carry my Glock when I do carry it. But I always put the Glock in the pocket holster so that the trigger is covered and then put the gun and holster together into my pocket.


"Sure it is - it just depends who's handling it, and, in fact, I would argue that Glocks are more drop-safe than regular 1911s (I can't believe I'm defending Glocks here, but fair is fair). How are you defining "safe", exactly?"

The inherent safety of the gun, and different guns are more or less inherently safe, does not depend on who's handling. The safety of the person with the gun and those around him or her does depend on who is handling the gun regardless of the gun.

BTW, agree completely with you on keeping the gun pointed in a safe direction. While I said the most important safety is keeping your finger off the trigger, in fact all of the four laws are as important. If you keep all four of them all the time, you and those around you should be safe. Again the primary safeties are in our minds.

Although most 1911s and Hipowers now made have effective drop-safeties, I would agree that a Glock is certainly more drop safe than an older 1911 or Hipower without the thumb safety on. A Glock is not anymore drop safe though than a 1911 or Hipower of any age with the thumb safety on.

"Glock triggers can indeed be made as light, but they don't come that way from the factory, nor could they be described as being a glass-rod break - they also have a longer trigger-pull and are quite safe to carry without a thumb-safety being required - or are you saying otherwise? Second question - would you carry a 1911 cocked and unlocked? If not, why?"

From the Glock 26 site:
TRIGGER PULL
2.5 kg / 5.5 lbs.
TRIGGER TRAVEL
12.5 mm / 0.5 in
However measuring my Glock 26, I come up with a little over .3 in travel. As far as I know, it hasn't had a trigger job and It doesn't feel any shorter than any other Glock I have shot.

From the S&W M&P 45 site:
Trigger Pull: 6.5 lbs.
Trigger Travel: Rest to Fire .300 in.
Trigger Reset: Approx. .140 in.

From several sites on 1911:
Standard trigger pull: 3.5-7 lbs, not glass-rod break unless modified.
Measuring my 1911s trigger travel, I got around .1- .2 in. On several sites, posters mention that various makes of 1911, particularly Taurus, have as much as 1/4 inch of slack before the trigger really begins to travel. That would put overall trigger travel in the range of .35-.45.

From several sites on Hipowers:
Trigger pull: 7.5 Lbs
Measured travel on my Hipowers: .25-.6 in

Comparing the guns, the trigger pulls are about the same with some 1911s and Glock at the low end and Hipowers at the high end but in reality, not much difference. While the trigger travel in the 1911 is clearly less than any of the others, the Hipower and M&P are about the same as is my Glock. And even they are only .1-.2 inches longer than my 1911s, really not much for most people. And at least one of my Hipowers had longer trigger travel than any of the others.

In comparison, the Sig 229 has a double action trigger pull of about 10 lbs and my Sig 229 trigger travels at least .6 inches in DA. I haven't measured them but I am sure my Ruger P 95 was in the same range and my KT P11 was even longer. In sum, the Glock and M&P do not have long trigger pulls, not compared to the 1911 or Hipower nor to a true DA the Sig 229.

Would I carry a 1911 or Hipower with the safety off? I don't carry a 1911 but have carried my Hipowers with the safety off. I don't make a practice of it primarily because I like to have a thumb safety. My M&P also has a thumb safety unlike many. Have I carried my Glock even though it doesn't have a trigger safety? Sure but not very often because I don't trust that "long pull". There is a reason that the term "Glock leg" exists. No shading here, just the truth. If you are depending on that "long pull" of a Glock as a safety, you are depending on a thin reed, IMHO.

In the end, the primary safeties are in your and my minds. With any of these guns including the 1911, as long as you keep your finger and anything else off the trigger, the gun won't go off. That is the only reason I feel at all comfortable carrying my Glock. And with Glock, Sig, M&P without safeties and the 1911 and Hipower with the safety off, if you pull the trigger the gun will go off. Keeping your finger off the trigger is the most important safety and it works that same no matter the gun or the condition the gun is in.

If you want safety, carry a 1911 or Hipower or M&P with the thumb safety. If pull and click is more important to you then carry a Glock or other gun without a thumb safety. But don't delude yourself that a Glock is just as safe as a 1911 or Hipower with the thumb safety on. We each have our own decisions to make as to what to carry. Just make sure you make them based on facts and valid reasoning.

AndyC » Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:06 pm

1911 needs a thumb-safety because of its short and light trigger-pull. Glocks, DA autos and revolvers don't really need one - not for that reason, anyway.

Glocks have triggers that are just as light and only a very small bit longer that a 1911. And my Hipowers have a longer trigger and heavier trigger pull than any Glock I have ever shot. S&W M&Ps similarly have trigger pulls about as short and certainly as light as 1911. So that really doesn't explain why a 1911 or Hipower "needs" a thumb safety.

I carry my Hipower cocked and locked with the safety on. Having said that, I don't see the difference between carrying a Glock with no safety and carrying my Hipower with the safety off.