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seamusTX wrote:

stevie_d_64 wrote:What I meant was the slightest word, or look in the direction of someone who is basically doing something that is disturbing the peace, or causing an annoyance near you, or even something maliciously destructive or illegal, is a risk some people are not willing to interject their sensible reasoning into...

I agree. A more extreme example is a guy in Galveston who told drug dealers to go somewhere else, and they tried to burn down his business.

It's a risk, but if law-abiding people don't take it, the thugs will completely take over.

You just have to figure out the best way to do it.

- Jim

Totally with you on that aspect...Knowing what legally keeps us "in-check" for lack of a better term, helps us know what we can and cannot do, and if the other party decides to take offence at our reasonable request(s), then other things come into play...

Which I have sometimes been concerned that any effort on our part to reasonably and maturely deal with a situation like this could be misconstrued as escalating in a court of law...But then again things like that would not surprise me...

seamusTX wrote:

stevie_d_64 wrote:The question you may have to ask yourself is, do you think any action you take verbally, physically, pre-emptive or not, to address issues like this is truely escalating a situation??? And your responsibility for anothers reaction???

I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this question.

If a bunch of teenagers want to play loud music next to your house and throw beer cans around, and you ignore them, they will most likely be happy to continue.

If you do something to stop them, they will be unhappy about it, and possibly retaliate. Of course that is legally and morally wrong, but it can happen.

I just think you need to find the course of action that is least costly overall and most effective.

When we first moved into our current house, we had a lot of trouble with theft. Even our trash cans were stolen. We put up a security fence with locking gates and put burglar bars on the garage. Problem solved. I think the local thugs realized we were serious about security and turned to easier pickings.

- Jim

"Hey Jim...Turn down that music please...It is very loud and it is disturbing us...Thanks"

"Hey Steve, shove it!"

(not that I ever believe we would have a dissagreement like this... )

This is what I meant...

Most of the time I think kids would listen and comply with a reasonable request like this...It used to be that way when I was growing up...If we were doing somethign stupid and annoying, and an adult or nieghbor took issue with it, we cooled off...Sure we cussed about it a little, but we never took it beyond that...

Today, it is a totally different world, kids are indoctrinated to question and disrespect people who make reasonable approaches like this...Some are not this way, and will not be a problem...But some are...

What I meant was the slightest word, or look in the direction of someone who is basically doing something that is disturbing the peace, or causing an annoyance near you, or even something maliciously destructive or illegal, is a risk some people are not willing to interject their sensible reasoning into...

txinvestigator wrote:

Thane wrote:This brings up an interesting situation we've had lately. Neighborhood punks have been partying in the vacant house next door. We've chased them off four or five times now, and have resorted to calling the police, and having them escort the teenagers home (and I'm assuming, ticketing the parents). The landowner is also not happy about these kids trashing the place, as he's trying to sell it, and (I think), has started pressing criminal trespass charges.

Needless to say, the punks are less than thrilled.

Last Monday, I came outside to find my windshield smashed. I've no idea which punk did it, as they took off and I didn't see the actual incident. However, this brings me to my question:

If I see someone committing such an act of vandalism against my property, am I justified in detaining them by force? To further complicate the question, here's two more details:
I park in the street, as the driveway already has a car, and
The punks in question are most probably minors.

Thanks in advance!

Thane.

This is so fraught with potential problems for you I hesitate to answer.

I am going to say you should probably go ahead and consult an attorney, both to establish any justification you may have and the restrictions, and to prepare for after-the-fact.

I would add that "Thane's" interest in this issue begins and ends at their property line...

But whos to say that if they had not said anything at all, or not called the police that the criminal mischief performed upon his property would not have happened...

The more we excuse, ignore, and do not actively confront behavior like this the more it permiates and extends to areas where it does directly effect us...

We are certainly not police or lawful authority, nor is it our job to perform anywhere near that capacity, I think thats what "Txi" was referring to...And I believe that as well...

We almost know where any affirmative action we take against someone we witness performing a mischievious act on ours, or some nieghbors property would proceed, in the court of public opinion...That is sadly the case in our society now...We've seen it too many times...

There isn't a single person on this forum who I really believe would pull their gun out and detain or threaten the use of deadly force upon someone in this regard, as a first reaction to such an act...We are too smart...We'll exhaust all means, and then some, before we do something like that...But we are always ready and prepared to meet a greater threat if it escalated to that...

The question you may have to ask yourself is, do you think any action you take verbally, physically, pre-emptive or not, to address issues like this is truely escalating a situation??? And your responsibility for anothers reaction???

Sorry if I went off-topic, but this looks like the direction some folks want to go with the discussion...Maybe we could split this one off on another thread...

KBCraig wrote:It's probably time to point out that the original post wasn't asking our authority to effect a citizen's arrest, but rather what duty we have to comply if someone is trying to effect a citizen's arrest against us.

And to some up: if you're innocent, and a non-LEO citizen is trying to use deadly force or threat of deadly force to arrest you, then they're trying to kidnap you, and you are clear to resist the same way you would any other kidnapping.

If they assault you, you can legally resist the same way you would any other assault.

Kevin

That would push the boundaries of aggravated kidnapping wouldn't it??? If a weapon is involved and used against you to intimidate, coerce you into submission...

I find it amazing how quickly people become incited to react when someone disrespects you and uses foul language to illicite a response, whatever that may be, either directly with a verbal response, or just a look these days...

The very basis for "Starrs" conflict resolution we have all seen in our CHL classes preaches difusing an act of conflict is the knowledge (at least my interpretation) is that you certainly have the ability to decisively end the conflict...So do everything you can to not escalate or incite the other person(s) to continue...

So knowing that, if someone believe they should place you under citizen arrest (I thought Texas didn't have this provision, and like "Txi", this is not a very common occurance), you should comply to the point of trying to determine if it is warranted...

But pretty much by that time other lawful authority should be present, hopefully, and their evaluation and authority should be given full weight...

Interesting discussion so far!