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Charles L. Cotton wrote:Mine still hasn't shipped.

You've been waiting, what, six weeks now?

The Annoyed Man wrote:I do the opposite. I get on paper with cheap ammo, and then finalize zero with the higher quality stuff, if that is what I'm going to be shooting in that rifle. But for my AR carbines, I don't bother with match ammo. I use either 55 or 62 grain FMJ, or cheap 55 and 60 grain soft points - depending on application. But my DMR gets 75 or 77 grain match ammo. Even so, I'll still use the cheap stuff to get on paper.

With my .308 bolt rifles, I'll use bulk loaded 175 grain BTHP to get an initial sight in, and then switch my 175 grain SMK handloads for final zero. I do it that way because I take my time loading the handloads, and I load them in small quantities; so I don't want to just use them up getting on paper with a newly mounted scope.

Yep. And for me, it depends on the firearm, intended purpose, and distance selected for the final zero...which may be exactly what you said about for your basic AR carbines.

If using the typical U.S. Army battlesight zero recommendations for a 5.56 rifle, the guideline is to first zero at 25 meters, then confirm and refine at 300 meters, where the ballistic path should bring the bullet back to point-of-aim (assuming the standard M16A2/A3/A4 and M4 sight offset). Difficult to find targets in meters at commercial ranges, but that doesn't really matter too much until you get out beyond 100 meters. I'm not much of a long-range shooter but if I were, a rangefinder and a decent ballistics calculator would be my friends to help ensure the holes are appearing where they should relative to the actual target distances I'm working with.

At 25 meters (27.34 yards) unless there's something very wrong with the ammo, groupings shouldn't deviate a whole lot simply because there ain't much distance for spread to occur. Every 25-meter increment farther, and there's more room for deviation. And here's where I'll disagree with the Army: I do sight most of my 5.56 rifles for the 25-300 zero, but I move from 25, to 100, to 200, to 300 (if I even go that far, which I seldom do). Decently grouped rounds at 25 meters may not even get on paper in an interpretable pattern at 300. Waste of time and money to shoot at 300 if you can't get your 100-meter groupings where they should be.

Most of the 5.56 ammo I've shot the last couple of years has been Freedom Munitions reman. I'm overall happy with it and, frankly, only with a couple of my guns have I bothered to use high-end ammo to confirm POI at 300. But that's because I have no delusions about my ability: unlike some of the members here (Beiruty, TAM, AndyC, and you know who else you are), at 300 yards I'll never even be able to dream about aiming for that housefly sitting off on the side in the 3-ring; I'm pleased as punch to get moderately near the big black splotch in the center of the target.

So for my ARs, I'm mostly concerned about bullet weight; in other words, sighting in by shooting what I expect to shoot out of that rifle. There are a number of free, online ballistics calculators that can be very helpful, and many commercial manufacturers' websites provide ballistics data for their specific ammo (but you may still need a dynamic calculator since those manufacturers' data typically use a base rifle with a 26" barrel). You don't have to spend a bunch on gear, just a little research time to know the particulars of the rounds you intend to shoot, the rifle characteristics you'll be shooting them out of, and then calculate before you go to the range what the POA/POI deviation should be for the various distances you'll be shooting; print and take those "dope sheets" with you.

We've had this discussion before, but I usually like to shoot some plinking ammo through a new barrel and clean it before I do my initial sight-in. Probably unnecessary and anachronistic, but then I'm an anachronism myself. When sighting in a new rifle that has a purpose other than just a general-use carbine, I try to guess what the gun will like based on barrel length and twist rate, and then try to take at least two or three different types of ammo for use when sighting in beyond the initial starting distance; the gun may choose one type over another even if the specs on the loads seem nearly identical.

There are always exceptions, of course. I have a some rifles that have hybrid sighting systems. For example, my POF .308 has Vortex glass on top with Troy flip-up MBUIS and a reflex red-dot mounted at 45-degrees on the right. I have the scope zeroed at 100 yards with a Hornady 165-grain load, and both the RDS and irons zeroed at 25 yards just with basic Freedom Munitions 150-grain reman...'cause it's inexpensive. Yep; I fired a couple of Hornady rounds with the other sights, but only to make sure there was no bizarre deviation at the 25-yard zero.

And recently, I went in reverse. I got my first AR pistol whose intended purpose, other than some fun at the range, will be home defense. I really didn't care what the 7.5" barrel would most like; I decided a heavier bullet would work best at short residential property distances, so I chose the Hornady 5.56 75-grain SBR Black ammo to load it with...as long as it fed reliably. The pistol has a reflex red-dot and a laser (first laser I've ever put on any rifle-caliber gun) and both are zeroed at 25 yards. I really don't care what it shoots like at 100 yards, but I did put a few rounds through it at 50 to make sure I was at least hitting something pie-plate size on the target; did better than pie plate, but it may seldom be fired at that distance again.

Bottom line I guess, for me, is that I want to know how the gun shoots with the ammo I'll be feeding it. If it's going to be a sub-100 yard CQB carbine, I don't spend big bucks on ammo trying to get 1/2 MOA at 100 yards. If it's a reach-out-and-touch something rifle then, yeah, I want to find a quality, for-purpose load--be that hunting or target shooting--that the rifle most likes and that will offer nice, tight groupings, then do final sight-in with the premium stuff.

Guys who can shoot a marble off a fence post at 500 yards keep detailed log books about their shooting. They can tell you precisely how the same load out of the same rifle performed today compared to its performance two months ago when the temperature, wind, and humidity were different. I ain't near good enough for that. But once I settle on the ammo I'll use for a specific rifle, one that's other than a sub-100 yard carbine, I will write down the actual ballistic performance at a few different distances on a day when the wind isn't howling, just so that I have a simple baseline record of where shots are going to impact relative to POA at what distances.