Search found 8 matches

by Skiprr
Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:25 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas
Replies: 166
Views: 25801

Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

HGWC wrote:
NcongruNt wrote:As it is, you're pushing people away from your cause.
I don't have a cause. I have a point of view in one OC thread on one Internet forum.
HGWC wrote:...in order to prevent damage to our cause...
Okay. The dirt.

The single-minded hammer with which you accost this Forum does not bespeak someone who is passive about a "cause."

You've just admitted there is a "cause" and that it is yours. Previously, you denied you had a "cause."

RKBA must live at the very heart of your being. It must, given your obvious passion for the issue.

Yet, you only decided to obtain your CHL last August.

Why? Why file only four months ago if this is such an important issue to you?

You blasted the DPS saying they were denying you your fundamental rights indefinitely. Oops; your CHL arrived in the mail last week.

Why don't you come clean and tell us all who you really are, and fully disclose your affiliation with OpenCarry.org?
by Skiprr
Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:42 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas
Replies: 166
Views: 25801

Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

HGWC wrote:
Skiprr wrote: The answer, in my opinion, is because it is not the correct battle. Such a groundswell would be (as nitrogen so eloquently put it) better focused on where and when we can carry, not how. It would be better directed in support of bills that can be won and that would make important differences to the 260,000 or so CHL holders in Texas, as well as thousands of future CHL holders.
If tens of thousands of people think it's a worthy issue to raise with their representatives in the legislature, who are you to say it isn't?
HGWC wrote:
NcongruNt wrote:As it is, you're pushing people away from your cause.
I don't have a cause. I have a point of view in one OC thread on one Internet forum.
HGWC, I am one guy stating an opinion in one OC thread on one Internet forum. Those are my only credentials for expressing my thoughts. And I would never ask that same question of you, because I respect your right to voice your opinion.


HGWC wrote:
Skiprr wrote:Conversely, if thousands of people contact their representatives requesting support of an RKBA-related concept that will be, let's face it, a political hot-potato for any senator or member of congress, we're flooding the aisles with noise and running the risk of desensitizing our legislators to RKBA-related measures that have a realistic chance of passing, that would improve our lives and the state of RKBA in Texas, and that have been in the works for months and years.
Tens of thousands of constituents flooding their representatives demanding their fundamental rights be restored is considered noise and desensitizes them to the issues? What's wrong with that picture?
My only observation here is that the playing field keeps shifting as I read arguments for the "cause," and at some point someone needs to decide if what is being so passionately sought is a change to the Texas Penal Code so that open carry is permitted, or if the demand is the "restoration" and securing of "fundamental rights."

If the belief is that it is the latter that is required, you don't need to worry about a bill changing the Penal Code; you need to be working toward an amendment to the Texas Constitution. Unlike the U.S. Constitution, the Texas Constitution expressly says that the state may regulate the wearing of arms. Article 1., Section 23. was written into the Texas Constitution on February 15, 1876, and has not been amended in the intervening 132 years.
Texas Constitution, Bill of Rights wrote:Section 23. RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime.
The legislature can, in any session, pass laws that regulate the wearing of arms. If unlicensed open carry is a fundamental right, it can be secured with practical permanence only by an amendment that modifies the wording of Section 23 of the Texas Bill of Rights.

As for the issue of open carry as a fundamental right at the Federal level, Charles already answered this with far more knowledge than I will ever have. Since his post have become lost or overlooked a few pages ago, I'm going to take the liberty of repeating it:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:A lot of people are basing their support of open-carry solely on the Second Amendment, arguing that not allowing unlicensed open-carry violates the Second Amendment. In a purist sense, I agree. To me, the Second Amendment means precisely what it says; i.e. no infringement.

However, what I think about the Second Amendment doesn't matter. Like it or not, accept it or not, the only opinions as to the constitutionality of any laws that matter are those in the majority of any U.S. Supreme Court decision. Right now, five of the nine justices tell us the Second Amendment is an individual right. In dicta, those same five justices tell us that states can restrict where guns can be carried and the states/cities can even require a license merely to own a gun, not to mention carry one in public. I'm very happy with the Heller decision, but I would have been elated if Alan Gura had not conceded that licensing is constitutional, so the majority opinion would have directly addressed licensing. My guess is that licensing would be found constitutional, so long as it is not arbitrary or capricious or merely veiled prohibition.

So when supporters of open-carry argue that any opponents don't support the Second Amendment, the allegation is unfounded. All this means is that opponents don't accept their interpretation of the scope of the Second Amendment. As I stated earlier, no opinions matter unless they get a vote on the Supreme Court. It doesn't matter how much we scream and holler or beat our chests, open-carry isn't mandated by any decision of the U.S. Supreme Court or the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals.

I wish it were different, but it is not. We get things done by dealing with how things are, not how we wish them to be. Reasonable minds can differ on whether open-carry should be pursued in Texas, and if so, how should it be done (licensed v. unlicensed, etc.) and who should carry the flag. Since valid, rational arguments can be made on both sides of the debate, there is no reason to question the dedication of people who don't share our opinions on this very emotional issue.

Chas.
by Skiprr
Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:28 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas
Replies: 166
Views: 25801

Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

HGWC wrote:
Skiprr wrote:As you yourself said, Sun Tzu wrote, "The wise general will not engage in battle unless and until the battle is already won."
If thousands of people contact their representatives supporting open carry, I don't see where we lose the battle even if the bill never even gets introduced.
The answer, in my opinion, is because it is not the correct battle. Such a groundswell would be (as nitrogen so eloquently put it) better focused on where and when we can carry, not how. It would be better directed in support of bills that can be won and that would make important differences to the 260,000 or so CHL holders in Texas, as well as thousands of future CHL holders.

Conversely, if thousands of people contact their representatives requesting support of an RKBA-related concept that will be, let's face it, a political hot-potato for any senator or member of congress, we're flooding the aisles with noise and running the risk of desensitizing our legislators to RKBA-related measures that have a realistic chance of passing, that would improve our lives and the state of RKBA in Texas, and that have been in the works for months and years.

It is my humble opinion only, but I think those are the battles we need to be fighting come January 13.
by Skiprr
Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:53 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas
Replies: 166
Views: 25801

Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

Liko81 wrote:Wow. I had thought I wasn't going to reply; my views on OC are pretty well-known around here. This post is a bit long, but please continue reading:
Liko81, since you chose to put my name at the top of your post, I'll take a moment to respond even though I have deadlines I'm working against...which, to everyone's relief, will force me to keep this (relatively) short. ;-)

If you read my posts, in particular on December 2, you would know that I am in no way opposed to the concept of open carry. I want to make that very clear because your choosing to quote me at the start of your post makes it seem as if I am, and most of your message addresses open carry itself, not the realities of the political and legislative landscape, which is my real concern.

Is open carry something I personally feel I would exercise? Probably not. If I did, it would be very seldom, and not in most metropolitan settings. But that is not at issue.

My concern is that OpenCarry.org really doesn't have a draft for a viable bill and I see no evidence that there is a Texas legislator ready to carry this flag, nor do I see any cooperation or support from important gun-rights lobbying groups like the TSRA and NRA. OCDO seems to be attacking the issue without a reasonable plan or strategy; the approach seems to be saber-rattling and megaphones: buying "sound-bite" ads on billboards and radio and signs on Austin taxis, and seeking air time on television and radio news shows.

As you yourself said, Sun Tzu wrote, "The wise general will not engage in battle unless and until the battle is already won." Entering a legislative "war" of this magnitude without having knowledgeable and experienced "generals" who understand where, when, and how the "battles" should be waged is a recipe for defeat. Moreover, and my main fear, a noisy "war" may sensitize legislators and anti-gun lobbyists and damage the chances of important bills that have been in the works for months and even years.

If we magically had open carry in Texas when we woke up tomorrow morning and none of our other rights or privileges were impinged or impeded, I'd stand and applaud with gusto. Open carry does not trouble me. What troubles me is whether this war is being chosen and engaged wisely.
Liko81 wrote:30,000 people who support this measure are not "nobody". That's about 1.5% of the general population.
The use of the quotation marks around "nobody" makes it seem as if this is something I said. It is not. I've not referenced the petition or the OpenCarry.org numbers in any way.

Since you brought it up, though, I'd like to offer a small correction. The Texas Department of State estimates for 2008 put the population of Texas at 24.2 million. So 30,000 people represent 0.12% of the general population, not 1.5%. To get to 1.5% would mean 363,000 individuals. Not saying 30,000 is anything to sneeze at, mind you.

The number of officers on the street really isn't germane, and I'll try to locate your other post about it to learn more. Just want to mention that in fiscal 2007 TCLOSE regulated 70,155 peace officers and 26,487 correctional officers; that number, of course, doesn't include any federal agencies with presence in Texas.
Liko81 wrote:I think it's hypocritical for anyone, especially a fellow gun rights advocate, to say that I, an upstanding, lawful citizen of the State of Texas and the United States, should not have the ability to make my choice while at the same time zealously safeguarding that same ability for themselves.
Again, since you chose to put my name at the top of your post and you don't clarify to whom you speak in this closing section, I want to make it absolutely clear that I have never stated or even intimated the stance these words reflect. I am confident you were not addressing me individually, but I don't want any readers to infer that you were.

And here I think is a good place to repeat what Charles said, because I believe it is an important level-set and all of us should hear it again:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:I wish it were different, but it is not. We get things done by dealing with how things are, not how we wish them to be. Reasonable minds can differ on whether open-carry should be pursued in Texas, and if so, how should it be done (licensed v. unlicensed, etc.) and who should carry the flag. Since valid, rational arguments can be made on both sides of the debate, there is no reason to question the dedication of people who don't share our opinions on this very emotional issue.
by Skiprr
Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:23 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas
Replies: 166
Views: 25801

Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

KBCraig wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:OpenCarry.org, a Virginia-based organization....
I didn't realize that Virginia-based organizations were unwelcome in Texas. Don't you happen to sit on the Board of Directors of a Virginia-based organization? ;-)

OpenCarry.org is no more an "organization" than TexasCHLforum.com is.
I believe you may be thinking of the nascent Texas CHL Forum, Inc. TexasCHLForum.com does not collect money, accept donations, sell memberships, or make advertising buys.
OpenCarry.org wrote: With billboards in both San Antonio and in Houston, and with the taxi's rolling our message out to Austin every day, we now turn our attention to the airwaves!

We have an opportunity to place radio ads in the Dallas-Ft Worth metroplex! With this buy, we will have taken our message to all of the major markets in Texas....

If you have not donated yet, or have a little left to give, now would be the time.

Anyone donating $25 or more dollars who is not already a Founder's Club or Centurion member will have their member status updated to "Lone Star Thunder Veteran."
by Skiprr
Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:03 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas
Replies: 166
Views: 25801

Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

carlson1 wrote:This is a hard topic because of the hard feelings on both sides. :thumbs2:
This is worth pointing out, IMHO, because this Topic was not started by the OP as the umpteenth one about open carry itself, or rights versus privileges, or DPS delays in issuing CHLs. It was started to discuss the specific issue of OpenCarry.org's new, aggressive focus on Texas and our 81st state legislature, now only weeks away; the gavel falls at noon on January 13.

To me, that's a very specific distinction. If someone could wave a magic wand and, voila!, Texas had permissible open carry with no other impact whatsoever to the hard-thought and hard-fought laws that are in place today, and to those that are being prepared--that have been in the works for months and even years (remember, we had a parking lot bill in 2007 that passed committees but could never get on calendar)--of course I'd be for it. No problem.

But the real world doesn't work that way. Nobody has a magic wand; we don't have an autocracy or monocracy where one opinion can be swayed and everyone else in the land hops-to and falls into ranks.

The reality is that everything is about politics. Everyone and every special interest group has an opinion that is allowed to be heard; there are fulltime lobbyists who fight for specific agendas; there are a broad array of interests aligned against what next steps need to happen in Texas to improve our state laws with respect to firearms.

It's about politics and it's complex. As Charles has pointed out, even the change of one or two words has kept bill sponsors, attorneys, and lobbyists up late into the night negotiating over what may seem to be minutiae. On the pro-gun side, those who have been involved in crafting and pushing legislation have been--must be--extremely careful of the ripple effects of any single change. And they must have near-term and long-term strategies and be forever cognizant of the political reality so that they can, in fact, negotiate: we have no issue that can be won with a sledgehammer; it takes superior strategy and finesse, not a bull in the china shop.

Look how much was achieved in the 2007 legislative session.

There are two things troubling me most about OpenCarry.org's approach. The first I can sum up as: "United we conquer; divided we fall."

We are in a minority to begin with. The pressures that kept the 2007 parking lot bill out of calendar came, in large part, from strong lobbying by the business sector and chambers of commerce. Powerful opposition with a lot of money behind them. Pardon the metaphor, but we can't overcome opposition like that with a spray-and-pray approach.

We need to pick our battles logically, carefully, and marshal our RKBA forces in a focused effort to make gains in the legislature.

To my knowledge, OpenCarry.org did not work with the TSRA (and I may write Alice Tripp to confirm), the NRA, or any of our state's longtime legislative authors and supporters before arbitrarily deciding they wanted to jump into the fray and push their single agenda. To heck with whether or not it's the best thing for Texas and firearm laws in Texas.

Nitrogen won the thread's Best Post award so far: "I wish these people were more concerned with where they can carry than with how."

Pushing an open-carry agenda that is single-minded, that is poorly thought out, that disregards the political landscape in Texas, and that does so without cooperation and solidarity from the TSRA, NRA, and those with their fingers on the gun-pulse of Texas is, in my opinion, precisely the wrong thing to do. It is divisive to the state's gun owners and RKBA advocates, it will add confusion to bills that need to be on the table, and it will give a new rallying point for anti-gun lobbyists.

Which leads me to reason number two, and I already said it: poorly thought out.

If OpenCarry.org really wanted to win this emotionally-charged political battle in Texas, don't you think they might actually do some research? Learn the history of gun legislation in the state? Talk to the TSRA and build a coalition? Actually pay a Texas lawyer to draft their first offering of a bill?

Instead, the only place we're seeing money spent is on billboard and radio advertising. Call me naive, but that tells me OpenCarry.org's agenda is OpenCarry.org.

I hope you all looked at my earlier post, visited their site, and read what they are touting as their "bill" that they suggest we all should send to our state representatives. Not only does it look like it was dashed off in an hour by someone not a JD or member of the bar, they chose to edit not the currently published state penal code, but an interim version issued after the close of the 2007 session that still contains reference to changes made during that 80th legislature.

As an example of how little thought seemed to go into that document, consider that under it, if you do not have a CHL, the only way you can carry in your car is if the gun remains plainly visible. So what do you do if you need to go to a hospital or church or school or anywhere else where carrying would be prohibited? Leave your Glock sitting on your dashboard?

That's the kind of planning and professionalism that will hurt us, not help us.

My cautionary statement is this: Don't spam your state representatives with any and everything that comes along. Pick your battles wisely, focus on those battles, and then make your voice heard.

I personally have absolutely zero opposition to open carry, per se. But like I said, there ain't no magic wand. We all need to analyze, understand, and decide where to put our support. Just because the term "open carry" sounds good to you, doesn't mean that it's the best agenda to push in our 81st legislative session.
by Skiprr
Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:12 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas
Replies: 166
Views: 25801

Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

Okay. I promise not to comment, much...at least not right now.

The text of the canned letter OpenCarry.org has prepared and recommended all Texans send their state representatives begins this way:
Suggested Message

SUBJECT: Please sponsor legislation to restore open carry rights in Texas!

Dear Representative ________:

I ask you to sponsor legislation to restore the right of Texans to open carry holstered handguns. A draft of such a bill can be found at http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum51/17181.html....
I think we should all visit that link and read what OpenCarry.org is offering up as the example of the legislation they want to see.

I am not a lawyer...but then again, neither is Pierce or Stollenwerk. To me, however, this looks like someone spent about an hour reading and rewording what they felt was relevant...and that turned out to be nothing but §46 of the Penal Code. Mind you, even though this OpenCarry.org document is dated only one month ago, the "author" worked not from the currently published Texas Penal Code, but from the year-old interim documentation that includes annotations about the "newly" amended text that resulted from the 80th Legislative session.

These folks actually seem to be mobilizing, focused squarely on our backyard. And now that I've visited their site and read their "proposed legislation," I am becoming more concerned.
by Skiprr
Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:16 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas
Replies: 166
Views: 25801

Re: Open Carry.Org Targets Texas

Charles L. Cotton wrote:I've made my feelings about open-carry known, but I will not oppose their efforts either openly or behind the scenes. However, if they try to amend one of our bills and tack on their stuff, I promise you it will fail! Our bills are very carefully drafted and I'm not going to let anyone screw one up and harm our chances of getting something passed. I hope this is just interview talk and not part of their battle plan. If it really is, they will be making a very big mistake and making an enemy they don't want or need. I'll stay neutral as long as they don't mess with our legislation.
:iagree:

"As Texans realize how restrictive their rights are . . . there will be an awakening. Get ready for a showdown in Austin come January," [said Stollenwerk].

I don't really care one whit or another about whether Texas allows open carry. Even in the states where it's legal, we've already seen numerous reports that far fewer people do it than might be expected. I won't go into all the very good reasons that's so, but I could envision very few circumstances I would open carry.

But what deeply concerns me is that we have issues that are important to Texans; issues that have been on the table for years and that failed to make it out of committee in the 2007 Legislature; things like the Parking Lot Bill, for one.

Who knows how the political landscape in Texas will look in two more years? We need to accomplish this session those issues that are most pressing to Texas. We don't need the important, focused, legislative agenda interrupted, confused, or diluted by Pierce and Stollenwerk deciding to "mess with Texas" from their Virginia homes in order to foster their own agenda and belief sets.

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