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EEllis wrote:These stories were based of a press release done up by the girls lawyer. One source, and only one, I saw actually called VABC to get their side and none did any real investigation. That VABC made, or will make, changes is great but in no way impacts anything I said. Mind you they could think their policies are just fine but someone is just trying to get the press off their back so your conclusion that it proves something is thin. Even so if you actually bother to look at what I say I never approve, support or in any way condone any policy or tactics that VABC has or uses. I just think that so far no one has even tried to say that any of the agents have broken or violated any law, policy or anything else so to call for these extreme responses is unwarranted.

Oh and if you don't think this story came from a press release how do you think it came about?

EEllis, you are always critical of opinions given that cannot be supported by documented sources...where did you see a disclosure citing the girl's attorney as the source? Maybe it was just investigative journalism. Regardless of the source, the DA's office stated that girl's version was "factually consistent" with what occurred. As for no one claiming the agents broke or violated any law...well, NEITHER DID THE GIRLS before they were subjected to an "over the top" assault by 7 agents when they had done NOTHING wrong. One of the agents DID jump on the hood of the car...at least one of them WAS beating on the windows...at least one of them DID have a gun pointed at the girls. The resisting/fleeing/assault charges were a poor attempt at CYA after the fact (that's purely my opinion).

EEllis wrote:These were ABC agents. Most likely if they were not with licensing enforcement in a college town their big thing would be catching minors with booze. I know people think that is a horrible use of resources but at least be honest about it that agenda is politically motivated and has been pushed big time by groups like MADD and many others. Reminiscing about how it used to be is neither particularly revealing or relevant. So you have a group of State Booze cops whose main job is to catch minors with booze see what they believed was a minor carrying what appeared to be a 12 pack of beer. That is and has long been RS for a stop by law enforcement. More so in this case because this would be on of the main jobs for the agents so it should be well within their expertise.

Their MAIN job is to enforce the regulations governing the ESTABLISHMENTS that are LICENSED for the SALE AND DISTRIBUTION of alcoholic beverages...not to try and "catch minors with booze". Regardless of their job description, having SEVEN Agents doing a stakeout to "catch minors with booze" is a ridiculous waste of manpower and tax dollars. I'd like to see some of their reports showing how many violations they usually issued citations for and the dollar revenue generated compared to what the Agency spent in salaries, benefits and overtime to have seven agents sitting out there all evening. As for the relevancy of "how it used to be", I think the differences, between now and then, is one of the reasons we don't currently have the same respect and trust for law enforcement agencies we used to.
And also, the Virginia ABC has an "Underage Buyer Program" in which they utilize underage operatives, who go into licensed establishments to attempt to purchase alcoholic beverages. They work in conjunction with ABC Special Agents to uncover violations by the License Holders....so, why are they out doing stakeouts like this at all ?

mamabearCali wrote:

Cedar Park Dad wrote:Has anyone ever been arrested for that? (not the shop owners - the teenagers) who weren't being a nuisance in the first place?

Not that I have heard of....if the LEO has a burr you know where, he will sometimes write a ticket, but usually not. Usually it is just "give me that....now get out of here and don't do that again." I have really only ever seen tickets issued to places that serve alcohol to minors, usually the minor is not ticketed.

Sadly, now days they do arrest them quite often for minor infractions....not talking about kids out driving around drunk, but just having some beer in their possession...and it can be a permanent record if they are 18 or older. Since the law was changed 1/1/84, all alcohol related offenses stay on the arrest record FOREVER, even if probation is granted and completed successfully. I know people get tired of hearing how it was "in the day", but like some others here I had a number of occasions to interact with LEO's growing up in a small rural town. They knew a lot of us would have some beer in the truck on Saturday night, but as long as we didn't do anything to warrant them stopping us, they let it go. Once, about a dozen of us were hanging out in the bank parking lot about 11:00pm, listening to music, shooting the bull and a couple of guys were sipping a beer. The Sheriff, who knew all of us by name, pulled in and got out, and walked up and asked how we were all doing...checking us out of course...once satisfied nobody was drunk, he politely said "Boys...if ya'll want to drink a cold one and tell each other lies...then get on out of town and go down to the river, because if somebody calls and complains I'll have to do something about it." On other occasions, if we were driving around, we got stopped and they took our beer and told us to be at the jail at 8:00am with our Dads to pick up our beer...knowing that was going to have more effect on us than paying a $40 fine. It worked...and we all grew up with respect and trust for them because they didn't view their job as "punishing" us for our indiscretions, but rather "taking care" of us. I wish that was still the case.

SQLGeek wrote: Also it is not at all unusual for plainclothes (different from undercover BTW) ABC agents to make stops outside of establishments selling alcohol. My grandfather worked as a California ABC agent in the 70s and shared many different stories of him doing just that.

I can't speak to current policies...and I'm sure they have changed like most everything from in the early 70's, but in 77-78, I worked in Sheriff's Dept. in a college town...we had an ABC agent stationed with the dept. and I spent quite a bit of time working with him and we never arrested any minor for possession even when we observed them purchasing from a bar or store. His job was to ensure the licensed establishments were following the rules and regulations...not the customers. If we observed them serving/selling to underage or not checking ID's, he wrote citation to the seller, not to the kids. He'd go in a convenience store and observe and if he thought the kids looked underage (and this was when legal age was 18) he'd follow them out and have me approach in uniform and ask them for ID...if they were underage, he'd confiscate the beer and send them on their way. If it was in a bar, he'd approach them in a friendly manner and introduce himself and explain what he was doing and ask to see their DL...if they were legal he'd apologize for the intrusion and thank them for their time. If they were underage, he'd tell them he was sorry, but they had to leave immediately, and then he'd go write up the owner/licensee.

anygunanywhere wrote:

EEllis wrote:

talltex wrote:

EEllis wrote:[That's absurd and unrealistic. IMHO

Not to pick on just you, ( I often qualify)...but "IMHO" has to be the most out of place abbreviation used on any forum....but certainly, in your case, the "H" just doesn't fit!

You may be right but what should I change the H to and would people get it. IMEO? IMCO? IMIO?

IMTWOUOWIODLEOAWNCTEWTNIO

Anygunanywhere

well, I've waited for someone to ask the question....c'mon Anygun...just got to know what it means...

EEllis wrote:[That's absurd and unrealistic. IMHO

Not to pick on just you, ( I often qualify)...but "IMHO" has to be the most out of place abbreviation used on any forum....but certainly, in your case, the "H" just doesn't fit!

EEllis wrote:First that isn't how she stated it and what car on this planet has to be running to roll down the windows?

Almost every one of them, unless it has manual windows. The ignition has to be in the "on" or "run" position for the power windows to operate on every vehicle I know of, unless it has been running and just shut off, in which case, many will allow you to operate accessory functions, such as stereo, PW, PSeat until such time as the door is opened. Before you ask, my expertise comes courtesy of 40+ years in the business.