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parabelum wrote:

mojo84 wrote:There is a difference between discrimination and persecution. You experienced discrimination as a result of affirmative action and it has absolutely nothing to do with what went on in Oregon.

It doesn't help to conflate issues just because one is upset and angry. Regardless how righteous the cause. Finicum brought it on himself.

Can persecution exist without discrimination?
Can discrimination exist in absence of persecution?

This is relevant to the discussion here because again I ask you, how in the world is it that black lives matter thugs can rape, loot and burn half a city down, throw Molotov cocktails at LE, shoot at LE, and much more and they get a pass while this patriot is killed like a animal and left to bleed out?
How is it that we leaflet ISIS before we shoot at them, but gun this man down like an animal.

He was on his way to meet Sheriff Palmer and other officials my friends.

And as far as Trump, when it comes to this sort of stuff, he and his ilk and all the federal cronies can go where sun don't shine as far as I'm concerned.
I am not a 100%'er following blindly. I do support him, but on this I only support the American Rights and Liberties.

Javier730 wrote:

parabelum wrote:I'm sorry to report, but white male Christians are indeed persecuted in this Country. This did not manifest with BO, but it certainly intensified in the last few years.

My personal taste of this was when about 9 years ago I tested for a FF position in one of the big departments here in DFW.
I had upper percentile civil service and physical agility test scores. My background was (and remains) spotless. I passed poly and medical, only to be rejected just before oral panel.
Naturally I was livid about this and I asked but got no definitive answer until I spoke to a lieutenant who worked with adjoining department in hiring process.
Do you know why I was rejected, as bluntly as I was told? Because they had too many white males, and due to Federal quota guidelines, they had to make room for OTW (other then white) candidates. That was my experience.

Now, nevermind I busted my tail, and scored/tested well. In other words, nevermind my merits. Nevermind the fact that I came to this country from a war torn region with nothing to my name, have earned my way thru life scrubbing toilet bowls literally to pay for college, walking for almost an entire year to and from work, 9 miles one way daily. Nevermind the fact that everything I've earned in this Country came from blood sweat and tears, as it should.
No, nevermind all of that. I am white male and I had to make room.

And now it's even worse with this monster in WH. You have classes being thought about "white priviledge", even in our military.
You have an all out assault on white Christian males, like we have some darn secret handshake, wink or a nod that grants us some entry somewhere where only whites need apply.

Yes my friends, there is a persecution of white Christian males, and it's very obvious.

Back to this topic, this white Christian male patriot was on his way to meet with officials, and despite what propaganda tells you, he was on his way to have this settled peacefully when they ambushed him deadman curve style and killed him.
Grant County Sherrif confirms this and more will come out in the weeks to come.

Did that lieutenant show you any evidence that stated you were not to be hired for being white or did you just take his word for it?

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parabelum wrote:I'm sorry to report, but white male Christians are indeed persecuted in this Country. This did not manifest with BO, but it certainly intensified in the last few years.

My personal taste of this was when about 9 years ago I tested for a FF position in one of the big departments here in DFW.
I had upper percentile civil service and physical agility test scores. My background was (and remains) spotless. I passed poly and medical, only to be rejected just before oral panel.
Naturally I was livid about this and I asked but got no definitive answer until I spoke to a lieutenant who worked with adjoining department in hiring process.
Do you know why I was rejected, as bluntly as I was told? Because they had too many white males, and due to Federal quota guidelines, they had to make room for OTW (other then white) candidates. That was my experience.

Now, nevermind I busted my tail, and scored/tested well. In other words, nevermind my merits. Nevermind the fact that I came to this country from a war torn region with nothing to my name, have earned my way thru life scrubbing toilet bowls literally to pay for college, walking for almost an entire year to and from work, 9 miles one way daily. Nevermind the fact that everything I've earned in this Country came from blood sweat and tears, as it should.
No, nevermind all of that. I am white male and I had to make room.

And now it's even worse with this monster in WH. You have classes being thought about "white priviledge", even in our military.
You have an all out assault on white Christian males, like we have some darn secret handshake, wink or a nod that grants us some entry somewhere where only whites need apply.

Yes my friends, there is a persecution of white Christian males, and it's very obvious.

Back to this topic, this white Christian male patriot was on his way to meet with officials, and despite what propaganda tells you, he was on his way to have this settled peacefully when they ambushed him deadman curve style and killed him.
Grant County Sherrif confirms this and more will come out in the weeks to come.

mojo84 wrote:There is a difference between discrimination and persecution. You experienced discrimination as a result of affirmative action and it has absolutely nothing to do with what went on in Oregon.

It doesn't help to conflate issues just because one is upset and angry. Regardless how righteous the cause. Finicum brought it on himself.

anygunanywhere wrote:

Javier730 wrote:

anygunanywhere wrote:Being stupid isn't a crime and doesn't deserve being shot unless you are white, christian, and conservative.

People aren't being shot just because they are white, christian, and conservative. White, christian conservatives arent being persecuted here in the US.

mojo84 wrote:Speaking of double standards, I find it interesting that people that are so adamantly against the BLM and federal government control of land can be so adamantly for Donald Trump. Recently he was very clear that he is for the government controlling the lands in question and believes it would be bad if the land were turned over to the states.

Right. Believe whatever you wish.

anygunanywhere wrote:Being stupid isn't a crime and doesn't deserve being shot unless you are white, christian, and conservative.

mojo84 wrote:Speaking of double standards, I find it interesting that people that are so adamantly against the BLM and federal government control of land can be so adamantly for Donald Trump. Recently he was very clear that he is for the government controlling the lands in question and believes it would be bad if the land were turned over to the states.

mojo84 wrote:I didn't say they did nothing wrong. I believe I acknowledged they made mistakes. Why only look at what the police did wrong?

parabelum wrote: I've seen black lives matter thugs burn half the city down and they were treated better.

VMI77 wrote:

Javier730 wrote:

VMI77 wrote:Javier says not having a criminal record doesn't mean you can't be a criminal.

Here is what I said. It is highlighted in red.

VMI77 wrote:When you start saying you know it's obvious what someone was thinking by watching a video where he doesn't even speak you're far into the realm of speculation.

You can tell what a person is more than likely thinking based on their actions. Is it obvious he was thinking about stopping or fleeing? You said yourself even if he could get away where would he go and that he would be caught eventually. So why flee? Why even drive up to the road block? It obvious to me that he did not intend to stop and that he intended to get through.

VMI77 wrote:If they were really that concerned about him speeding up into the road block they could have put up a warning sign and a speed strip to take out his tires well before he was a threat to the road block.

Warning signs at this point would be as effective as "No Guns Allowed" signs are to criminals and spike strips are dangerous. Here is what the FBI says on them.
https://leb.fbi.gov/2012/september/bull ... ike-strips

VMI77 wrote:Based on the same information I come to the opposite conclusion. He was a family man in his 50s with no criminal record.You're assuming either than he didn't know the odds are slim to none or that he was stupid. I assume he was at least as well informed as I am. Since I know there is no percentage in running a road block I wouldn't do it. And for that reason I don't think it likely that is what he was trying to do either.

You dont have to have a criminal record to commit a crime. Before being arrested for committing a crime, first time offenders dont have criminal records. I be willing to bet most mass gunmen did not have criminal records before they committed their crimes.
I am assuming he didnt know the odds were not in favor of getting through. He must have known the odds of him getting away were slim, yet he still tried. So even if he did know about the slim chance of getting through the road block, just like fleeing, I believe he still tried. I see no evidence of him being fired on.

The only reason I said that you didn't have to have a criminal record to commit a crime was because you said Finicum was a family man with no criminal record. I understood that as you saying he would not break the law because that.

I am in no way in support of police killing people just because the they are armed like you tried to get across by putting what I said a sentence before mentioning the man killed by police at the Costco.

VMI77 wrote:And as far as being armed is concerned...all of us here are likely to be armed. Javier says not having a criminal record doesn't mean you can't be a criminal. The police in Vegas shot a guy coming out of a Costco store who was a West Point grad and concealed carrier. The "he was armed" justification can be used against all of us, and the antis would love for just that to happen, and for any of us carrying a gun to be killed by the police. They're celebrating Funicum's death. They'll celebrate any of us being killed whether we deserve it or not.

Your bringing up a man being killed by police and making it seem like I'm okay with it. It is very insulting. Thats like me saying, "VMI77 says you can not commit a crime or be stupid if you do not have a criminal record. Adam Lanza killed 26 people in Sandy Hook Elementary. 20 of them were children. Adam Lanza did not have a criminal record." Doing that is not cool...

I stand by this remark: "Javier says not having a criminal record doesn't mean you can't be a criminal." In fact, you used nearly the same words with the same meaning in a different order when you said: "You don't have to be a criminal to commit a crime."

I don't know how anyone can read the entirely of what I wrote and conclude something as ridiculous as that I said having no criminal record means a person will never break the law. Nor do I see how it can be interpreted as me saying that you support police killing people just because they are armed. Reread what I wrote....you even quoted some of it....it was a caution against letting our enemies use the notion that merely being armed is a justification for being shot. I'm addressing how the antis want just that to happen and celebrate it when it does.

When you slay me though is when you say it's insulting, and would be like you attributing to me the remark that someone cannot commit a crime or be stupid if they don't have a criminal record, after you actually just uttered nearly that very remark in the same response:

Javier730 wrote: "The only reason I said that you didn't have to have a criminal record to commit a crime was because you said Finicum was a family man with no criminal record. I understood that as you saying he would not break the law because that."

So, since you did actually say that to me are you now saying you were trying to be insulting? I didn't take it as an insult.

I sometimes fail to make myself clear and say something that can reasonably be interpreted in a way I didn't intend. I don't think that's the case here. I made several comments along the same lines so there is plenty of context. Clearly, as I just pointed out, your reading of my remarks is a little haphazard when you are able to posit something as a hypothetical insult you could have made to me and that something turns out to be something you actually said.

jerry_r60 wrote:I read much of this thread...I saw a little discussion about claims the truck was full of holes etc. I wasn't sure at what point in time all that shooting was supposed to have taken place. Most of the focus in the thread has been on the shooting of the individual that was killed. There were a couple of other things I saw in the video that got my attention. It's hard to tell exactly what all of them are. I'm not trying to make any particular point one way or the other. Just trying to understand what I see.

For one, you can sometimes see what looks like red laser dots on some of the people getting out of the car. Just thought it was interesting and expected.

after the shooting, you see the driver door start to open and close a few times. Then at about 9:53 There is a flash right around the driver door. incoming/outgoing shot? something else? I was thinking outgoing shot when I first saw it.

10:00 Flash a couple yards away from passenger side. Looks like a shot but it's a few yards away from the truck and no one there. What's that?

10:21 White puffs of smoke or snow or glass on passenger side window.
10:47 again with the white puffs.

Not sure what all was going on.

VMI77 wrote:Javier says not having a criminal record doesn't mean you can't be a criminal.

VMI77 wrote:When you start saying you know it's obvious what someone was thinking by watching a video where he doesn't even speak you're far into the realm of speculation.

You can tell what a person is more than likely thinking based on their actions. Is it obvious he was thinking about stopping or fleeing? You said yourself even if he could get away where would he go and that he would be caught eventually. So why flee? Why even drive up to the road block? It obvious to me that he did not intend to stop and that he intended to get through.

VMI77 wrote:If they were really that concerned about him speeding up into the road block they could have put up a warning sign and a speed strip to take out his tires well before he was a threat to the road block.

Warning signs at this point would be as effective as "No Guns Allowed" signs are to criminals and spike strips are dangerous. Here is what the FBI says on them.
https://leb.fbi.gov/2012/september/bull ... ike-strips

VMI77 wrote:Based on the same information I come to the opposite conclusion. He was a family man in his 50s with no criminal record.You're assuming either than he didn't know the odds are slim to none or that he was stupid. I assume he was at least as well informed as I am. Since I know there is no percentage in running a road block I wouldn't do it. And for that reason I don't think it likely that is what he was trying to do either.

You dont have to have a criminal record to commit a crime. Before being arrested for committing a crime, first time offenders dont have criminal records. I be willing to bet most mass gunmen did not have criminal records before they committed their crimes.
I am assuming he didnt know the odds were not in favor of getting through. He must have known the odds of him getting away were slim, yet he still tried. So even if he did know about the slim chance of getting through the road block, just like fleeing, I believe he still tried. I see no evidence of him being fired on.

VMI77 wrote:And as far as being armed is concerned...all of us here are likely to be armed. Javier says not having a criminal record doesn't mean you can't be a criminal. The police in Vegas shot a guy coming out of a Costco store who was a West Point grad and concealed carrier. The "he was armed" justification can be used against all of us, and the antis would love for just that to happen, and for any of us carrying a gun to be killed by the police. They're celebrating Funicum's death. They'll celebrate any of us being killed whether we deserve it or not.

Bitter Clinger wrote:No way this was going to end well. Here's what was streaming live over social media:



and this:

http://americanpowerblog.blogspot.com/2 ... -last.html

parabelum wrote:

AndyC wrote:When you have armed police or feds pointing guns at you, don't lower your hands.

I agree 100%, except I honestly cannot say what I would do if despite my compliance I got shot at, or if in the midst of a situation I trembled in the snow and got shot at. Survive, fight back, drop down...I don't know and I hope I'm never in that position.

AndyC wrote:When you have armed police or feds pointing guns at you, don't lower your hands.

mojo84 wrote:Every situation can be second guessed. If Finicum was so intent on living and valued his life as much as others seem to on his begalf, he could have done things much differently as well.

His actions led to his death. If it would have been a street gang, people wouldn't be saying anything about how the authorities should have waited them out.

These folks were armed fugitives and Finicum had already vowed he would rather die than go to jail. He got his wish. Now he can be considered an antigovernment martyr.