TexasCHLforum.com

DMG wrote:I agree that it is sometimes mis-diagnosed,

I think pbandjelly got it correct. But mainly DMG, can you tell me what other industrialized countries and developing countries has this issue of ADD on such a wide scale basis? Also, do you think it has anything to do with the prominence of pharmaceuticals industry in America society. the quick cure pill. Whereas, many other countries uses alternative remedies more often than in US. Try asking a foreigner for a remedy for an ailment and hear the different responses, then
try it with a citizen. you will notice most citizens under 30yo only knows what is on the shelf.

tomneal wrote: My problem is WHO is going to define psycho?
I am not as concerned about the current definitions of psycho. I am real concerned about future definitions of psycho.

Recently, in Germany, two teenage girls were adjudicated as psychos because the prefered Home School to Public School.

I OBJECT, I think this example is irrelevant, tomneal. You are comparing the laws of Germany to the laws of the USA. Two completely different countries. Find a case in one of the 50 states in the US. We can't use that comparison, because what about Saudi Arabia. They cut your head, hands, feet, whatever off for several common crimes. So are going to start using their examples for mental illness. Let's stick to the US.

tomneal wrote:What about ADD and ADHD?

There is already a cure for that. It is called a 2" leather belt running perpendicular to your backside. Now you can buy a gun.

frankie_the_yankee wrote: I mostly agree, but let make one distinction. It is true that laws and regulations need to change to accommodate the ever-changing situation we live in as time marched on.

But these changes must rightfully be accomplished by voting to change the law or amend the Constitution - NOT by suddenly deciding that the meaning of a law or portion of the Constitution has CHANGED ALL BY ITSELF.

I think you might have missed my next line in the same post,

And since the process of making your opinion count by send your representative has not changed. (ie VOTING), there should be no argument that is what the MAJORITY of the population at that PRESENT TIME is in agreement of.

So I don't think there is a distinction because we are in total agreement.

Charles L. Cotton wrote: the constitution means what the Supreme Court says it means. We can rattle sabers and beat our collective chests as long as we want, but at the end of the day, 9 men and women have the final word. I don’t like that one bit, but that’s the way it is. Chas.

Was busy typing when you posted, but thank you. Can I have your permission to attach some strings and rattle you and say the same thing lawyerly like you and maybe some can get it.

Are we able to check our status on the Federal Mental Illness database already???????? Just checking.


In all fairness, I think Geister is one of those idealistic guys that like to stick to exact literal writing of the laws and changes should be never made. That is fine. Whenever this world reaches the utopic level where laws won't be needed and everyone gets along, then we could stick to the letter of the law.
Until then, a CIVILIZATION cannot function without rules or regulations, otherwise there WILL be CHAOS. That is what seperates HUMANS from ANIMALS. And since the constitution was written years ago, before TV, radio, planes, satellites, times have changed and people have EVOLVED in life. Therefore, all along the ways the same laws and regulations have EVOLVED and changed accordingly by the people who were majority voted in as a REPRESENTATIVE of the population to form a government. And since the process of making your opinion count by send your representative has not changed. (ie VOTING), there should be no argument that is what the MAJORITY of the population at that PRESENT TIME is in agreement of.
So it is really striking that you keep running back to the 1700s when we are in 2007. So now we are at a point where a change is being ask to be made to a law since times have evolved and seems that you are exhibiting alot of fear. The pen is mightier than the sword, so strike your X down on that ballot when it is time for it, and let the majority AS ALWAYS decide since they are the government...right?


P.S.

Geister wrote:

The Founding Fathers wrote the Bill of Rights so that the COMMON MAN could read and understand it.

My Apache Indian co-worker told me not to sign anything I till I check with him first.

S&W6946 wrote: If these databases are not part of the TLETS system, then access to those systems is not available to law enforcement. Unless some local agency somewhere has access via another interface system.

Also, S.W.
Most jails where detainees are detained have a psych section/ward and medical personnel on staff right? What do they do with their info?

No 30.06 was posted!!!

Was outside in lobby and before the service started.

S&W6946 wrote: I've never heard of WEBCARE or Northstar. These systems are not accessed through TLETS (Texas Law Enforcement Telecommunications System). TLETS is the system that connects all Texas Law Enforcement agencies together and provides connections to TCIC, and NCIC. If these databases are not part of the TLETS system, then access to those systems is not available to law enforcement. Unless some local agency somewhere has access via another interface system.
Never having heard of them in my 32 years of Police Communications experience

Well I didn;t make it up, here is the link. http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/cmbhs/default.shtm

Also, as she told me, all those forms that you guys so love to fill out after detaining a mental case. Remember the particular ones that you always want to know why you love filling it out. Guess where it ends up???? Not every individual LEO enters the info, but those forms ends up to a certain division/office that enters that info. Those people that you wonder what do they do in the station.....Yup.!!!! We can learn something new everyday, SW.

http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/cmbhs/default.shtm

Everyone should check it out. But if you don't want to here are the main points.

Presently, the Department of State Health Services (DSHS) uses multiple information technology systems to provide and manage mental health and substance abuse services for Texans.
For the mental health system, CARE and WebCARE are the current systems that provide clinical management services. CARE’s database stores client registration and demographic data, assessment and diagnostic information from clinical service providers, state hospitals and others.
Gathering and analyzing comprehensive client and service data will help provide a full view of mental health and substance abuse services and present a complete and accurate treatment history for clients. This full picture will require input from multiple entities providing behavioral health services, including substance abuse providers, community MHMR centers, NorthSTAR, state hospitals and other providers. State hospitals are out of scope for the current project. Data integration through an integrated data warehouse or data federation is to be addressed in a future project.
The current project is designed to begin the streamlining process so clinical information is gathered in the most efficient way possible, minimizing entry of data into multiple systems and using industry standard transactions where possible.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:This doesn't look like a database of everyone prescribed medication for a mental disorder, but I'll keep looking as time permits.

http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/cmbhs/default.shtm

Neither does this: http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/mhprograms/ ... epage.shtm

That was a typo. I was at church service and typing on cellphone so couldn't edit too good. But I have clarified it since then. Only certain types of drugs, NOT ALL, gets you on the database.

Ok...I had a look at a different perspective from the wife. She heard the discussion about mental health database yesterday and she gave a suggestion today.

She said that they will still be a right to privacy issue on the mental health of every individual if dealers had to check on the database to see if someone was eligible. Although she agreed that the info is already know because it is stored in the states WEBCARE database. But she would object if she had to apply and the guy behind the counter would find out your status from having a check done on your eligibilty.

She suggested that the way to make it work is
1. To make it voluntary by having people sign a waiver to do a check of your mental history in previous determined time period. Just like you sign on a job application for condition of a job to have a background check.

OR

Just to keep your health info completely PRIVATE between you and your doctors.

2. Same as SOME job opportunities, in order to have it....you have to fill out the application and bring back a CLEAN POLICE REPORT. So they can model this and if you want to purchase a gun, submit along with application...a form from a doctor who has checked the STATES database and determined that your don't have a severe mental illness.

The samething would happen as on a job application. If you don't want anyone to know your severe status then you would not apply and therefore keep your history private between you and doctor. Hopefully, the therapy that they are seeking during the WAIT PERIOD would help them get over their illness.
And if you don't have a SEVERE problem, then you submit it and walk out with gun.

Hey geister,
from your last post, I just want to say that I hope that a lot more people were able to travel more often to several different countries and see the difference in CIVILIZATION around the world. Then you would able to see for your own eyes through globalization that some people will reject the idea of even reading the same book as you and will lash out in any way or means that they possibly can.
I remember when I was taught in school the whole globalization concept in the 80's and I didn't fully understand. Nowadays, I kinda had an epiphany. Alot of people don't have the same right and laws as the USA, alot of people don't want democracy, Americanization, and want to keep their same culture and find it under attack constantly. And they have to problem with attacking whoever they consider as the attacker.

Anyway, let's stay on the topic.

Geister wrote:[
I can see where your line of thought is coming from, but the only thing we can really do is react to someone committing violence towards us and infringing out rights to live in peace.

I hope one day that you can figure out the concept that it is always BETTER to ACT than it is to REACT in any situation in life. When you react you are ALWAYS TOO LATE. Just apply this concept to any scenario you want to.

patrickstickler wrote:
Well, I'll stop posting to this thread because it seems folks are too
busy or passionate to read what I actually wrote.

hey patrick, don't get discourage because I think we are getting some where in public opinion along with an open discussion. Some of us might not get a chance to hear all the (EVEN WIERD) ways people might be thinkin on this issue since we don't discuss guns at work.

Also, been mobile on cellphone and last night was first time I got to I got to get on main PC and watch the news in 2 days, didn't hear about NASA shooting til around 9pm on Friday. But watching alot of dicussion on several Directv channels, I have noticed that alot of people are coming to the same conclusion as we are discussing here and they heading down the road where the mental loophole needs to address in the PROCESS of purchasing a gun. They don't want to stop anyone from buying one, but when you have severe redflags in your recent mental history then someone needs to stop and say whoaaaa!!!!. Wait a sec.

TX Rancher wrote:

Lucky45 wrote:. Any patient who seeks mental care and is DIAGNOSED as mentally ill or perscribed a drug for mental sickness is automatically enter into the states database for tracking purposes... she says it does not come up on background checks.

Lucky45:

Would you please clarify your statement a little. It’s not clear to me the data being entered by the health officials is being used by the state to determine issues like drivers license, CHL, Child Care, etc. If they’re not, then I think the question of possible abuse is still unanswered…

Basically that information can only be ACCESSED by any "professional" attached to the medical environment in the state of Texas and she said it is similar in other states. (Doctors, psychologist, psychiatrist, insurance companies, hospitals, treatment facilities, etc.) Because if a patient moves to/from another state, the doctor can pull up their mental history or treatment plan and other info from the states mandatory DATABASE (WEBCARE.) So they don't have to depend on a patient telling them the truth about their mental history. Sounds like common sense to me, cause I can't imagine a person with multiple personalities telling you the whole truth.
Also it is entered by the same people along with a special division in the police department who can enter those cases they encounter. By the court, suicide watches ( yellow prison jumpsuit), domestic calls from concerned family.etc.

Of course the police investigate and not go on someone word that someone is crazy. LEO in here can clarify better, but they have to talk to the person and the suspect has to be either credible verbal threats, destructive to persons or property, etc. Clearly demonstrating that they are not in control of "THEIR OWN" normal state of mind. That is why those people taken into custody have a social worker (Harris County) show up from referall from the state database. Same thing happens for CPS with kids. How many people make noise about CPS showing up infringing on rights and privacy? This system mkight not be set up in small town USA, but that is how it is in the BIG CITY. Come to think about out it...it is ran by the COUNTY. duh. Also, it is not the stupid form people fill out at the doctors office, they are alot of notes doctors takes and store on a patient that you don't realize. They only enter their own mental health diagnosis only to the state's database.
Also, NO. It is not used to determine issues like drivers license, CHL, Child Care, etc. Because it can ONLY accessed by medical personnel.


But it kinda makes my point way earlier valid about going to A MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL who CAN get info from the database and sign a form saying they have check on the STATE's DATABASE and you do you reach the level on mental incompetency enough to deny you purchasing a gun. This might be cumbersome, but it might be simplified like suggested earlier to maybe a phone call with your SS# and then the requestor FFL # or UNIQUE # and it says YES or NO to a predetermined criteria and gives back to the requestor a CONFIRMATION #. I think that should be private enough. Use that number in the ATF form and bingo you go with your new purchase.


IDEAS????




GEISTER wrote:

But it was an isolated incident, and in general the perpetrator does not represent the majority of folks that seek medical assistance for mental issues. Denying the majority of folks that seek medical assistance their RKBA because a small percentage may use it to commit mass murder, to me, is not right. The bad overshadows the good in my mind…

I think the small percentage is what some and I want to be TEMPORARILY (NOT PERMANENT) denied acess to PURCHASING a new gun only. If they had any sinister plans, then they would have to either throw the ammuntion at you, or try to reload a the same gun.

finally back in TX, here goes.

Geister wrote:I find it rather silly that there are those wanting to propose a mental patient database after ONE mass incident.

like I posted earlier, there is a mental health database in TX which is called WEBCARE. Any patient who seeks mental care and is DIAGNOSED as mentally ill or perscribed a drug for mental sickness is automatically enter into the states database for tracking purposes. my daughter works for Harris County Mental Health and Retardation Authority as a mental health clinician. according to law and doctors hypocritical oath, they have to maintain records of this info. she says it does not come up on background checks. also LE have a state form that is filled out on mental case arrest which is automatically entered into states database. it is also reported by medical insurance plan to database when doctor files a claim on your policy during a visit.

so I think the argument some have made about a database is mute because it has been going on for years. where is the abuse?