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by jimlongley
Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:01 am
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
Replies: 70
Views: 8681

Re: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy

baldeagle wrote: . . . But as jimlongley admitted slavery was "among the root causes of the rebellion". So saying it wasn't about slavery is just as disingenuous as saying it was only about slavery (which, of course, I did not say.)
I admitted nothing, I flat out stated it, and you did state
baldeagle wrote:but the war was over slavery
or do you just mean that it wasn't "only" about slavery?

. . .
baldeagle wrote:Article 1 Section 9 forbade the banning of the importation of slaves until 1808. Congress passed a law forbidding any further importation of slaves that became effective on January 1, 1808.
And the slave population was not self-sustaining which, combined with "reforms" being enacted and just flat unpopularity, meant it was going to go away pretty soon anyway. There did not have to be a war about it, but people such as my great grandfather, who never owned a slave, felt as strongly about standing up to the bullying of the north, and "Marse Lincum" that he enlisted from Tennessee and rode with Forrest (and possibly with Quantril), and then had to flee to Texas and Indian Territory in order to escape reprisals.
by jimlongley
Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:42 am
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
Replies: 70
Views: 8681

Re: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy

K.Mooneyham wrote:Call me paranoid but here is my take on why this Confederate flag thing blew up like this. After the terrible and tragic shooting, there was a certain group of folks who hoped a riot would ensue like in other areas, mostly for political purposes. However, this shooting happened at a Christian church and a lot of the folks there obviously take their devotion and religion seriously. So, they didn't riot. The political agitators got kind of mad about that and quickly looked for something political they could use to get a "victory". They saw the racist nutjob with the Confederate flag and BAM! They had their angle. Since a certain political affiliation has huge sway on the internet, and especially on social media, companies couldn't dare not comply with demands that anyone and everyone immediately disassociate themselves the the Confederate flag, or risk being labeled as "racist".

I'm a Texan, and I care way more about the Lone Star flag than any other except the American flag. However, I really, really despise political correctness and the rewriting of history for political purposes. So, Amazon, Walmart, and others refusing to sell the Confederate flag irritates me to no end. But what irritates me more is all the people who jumped on the "ban it" bandwagon just to seem like they were doing the right (trendy) thing.
I agree completely about the attempt to foment riot by choosing the Confederate flag, but you make a point about caring more about the Texas flag, which raises an interesting conundrum.

Texas, as a separate nation, existed for close to 9 years, and then its flag flew as a state flag for another 19 before slavery was outlawed by the 14th Amendment. Without getting into all of the "little border" wars that flourished in the region after the Louisiana purchase, as first pain and then the newly independent Mexico encouraged immigration into the largely unpopulated area, many of the immigrants blatantly ignored Mexico's laws against slavery. This was actually one of the several causes of the rebellion against Mexico after Mexico decided to ban further immigration due to the immigrants' willful violations of the laws.

So Texas won her independence in 1836 and was a wholly independent country for 9 years before becoming a State of the United States in 1845. Thus Texas' Lone Star flag flew over a slave holding country, and then state, for 28 years, far longer than any Confederate standard.

If we let the rabble rousers get away with eliminating an historical relic because they see a tenuous association with slavery, is our beloved Lone Star flag next? And, as has been pointed out, the good old Stars and Stripes has flown over legalized slavery for a much longer period, so would it not be next? What do we get for a replacement, a rainbow?
by jimlongley
Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:22 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
Replies: 70
Views: 8681

Re: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy

Beiruty wrote:For historical perspective:
So from 1776 to 1861, slavery was legal in the USA. That is 85 yrs of legal ownership of slaves. What did the constitution mention about slavery?
Why the issue was not addressed for so long? Did the northern states have slaves?
Actually, slavery was legal in the states that were not in rebellion until December of 1865. Many of the northern states did indeed have slavery, Connecticut had a thriving agrarian economy that was supported by slavery, In NY state some of the very large farms (not as large as Texas ranches to be sure, but very large) depended on slave labor that was eventually replaced by migrant workers. And as an aside, it is a well hidden secret that the migrant workers who harvest crops all over the county live in conditions that are functionally equal today to what slaves lived in back then.
by jimlongley
Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:09 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy
Replies: 70
Views: 8681

Re: Confederate Battle Flag Feeding Frenzy

baldeagle wrote: . . .
I think it's abundantly clear what the cause of the Civil War was - the Republicans wanted to abolish slavery and were willing to use every means they could employ to succeed. The southern states did not want slavery abolished and chose to leave the Union rather than submit to the government.
And I disagree with you. Yes a variety of states did not want slavery abolished because it would irrevocably damage their economies, but many of those same states were willing and ready, and even starting, to "phase out" slavery. One big issue was that the industrialized north was increasingly "ruling" over the agricultural based south, kind of a macro version of NY City ruling the rest of the state. which has led to secession efforts in NY State several times, or like Chicago's machine politicians ruling the rest of the state, which would be a geographical nightmare to secede from.

I grew up in a family with deep roots on both sides of the line, my "Aunt" (who was really a much older cousin) Ruth ALWAYS described "the late lamented war" as https://www.jacobinmag.com/2012/08/the- ... ggression/. I got lectures from northern grandparents and southern grandparents to whom the was was a very recent memory, my paternal grandmother's father was a Union soldier, but her "lessons" on the root causes of the war were what I would consider very balanced. One of the things my "Gram" used to point out was that although the politicians on both sides generated the war, the vast majority of those who actually fought it were not slave holders themselves and were fervent believers that what they fought for was indeed the rights of their states to self determine rather than be ruled by the north.

My Texas born and bred "Grandpappy" (mother's father) was equally "fair" in his treatment of the issue, his father having fought for the south and become a "refugee" from northern justice. My maternal grandmother was perhaps the most prejudicial in her treatment of the issue, and she was raised in England, her viewpoint was that the north was entirely in the wrong, even though her native England had pretty much phased out slavery before our rebellion began, she saw the issue as one that could be resolved by less radical means, as England had done.

And consider that the states that were not "in rebellion" did not get slavery outlawed, and it was even practiced commonly, until well after the 13th Amendment was rolled out. At first it looked as though the 13th would be ratified by 18 states, leaving out the "states in rebellion" and forcing them to accept the amendment in order to be able to rejoin the union. Of course Virginia and Louisiana ratified in the first go 'round, and many of the other rebel states only ratified after their governments were "reconstructed" for them, ensuring ratification.

In December of 1865 Secretary of State Seward certified that the amendment had passed due to ratification by 27 of the 36 existing states, and only then did slavery officially cease to exist, although the word did not spread very well because it was still practiced, to some extent, in California and parts of Texas.

It is also somewhat interesting to note, as part of the overall picture, that Mississippi, Kentucky, NEW JERSEY!, and DELAWARE! ALL rejected the amendment the first time around, with NJ ratifying in 1866, Delaware delayed until 1901, Kentucky finally decided to break down and ratify in 1976, and Mississippi in 1995, but not certified as ratified as such until just two years ago.

In any case, and in my view, while the various issues surrounding slavery were among the root causes of the rebellion, there were so many other issues that to lay the blame solely on on slavery is naive at best, and disingenuous to boot. Just as the causes of the American Revolution can hardly be ascribed to a single issue, the causes of the War of Northern Aggression were many and varied.

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