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talltex wrote:

jimlongley wrote:And yes, the tech did it out of spite. I was in the dealership arguing with the service manager about the fact that it was not cooling very well (this was before I knew what they had done) and he had the tech who had worked on the vehicle take me out to show me that it was cooling down to spec temps. The tech reached under the dash with his turkey thermometer and shoved it hard up into the works. That evening my wife complained about something dripping on her feet. I took it back to the dealership the next day, by which time all of the refrigerant had leaked out and the compressor locked up. Eventually they replaced almost the entire ac system, but they never did pay my wife for the shoes that were ruined by the refrigerant leaking on them.

The vehicle was purchased from a dealership in Albany NY, and then I was transferred to IL. When I took it in for scheduled service, the local dealership wanted me to take it back to NY for service; I called Jeep and they confirmed that my plan was good anywhere. When the power steering went out, under warranty, they wanted me to take it back to NY for warranty repair; I called Jeep and they confirmed that warranty repair was anywhere. When I took it in due to the trailer towing harness fusing together (a memo or service notice, I don't remember, but it was internal and I only found out about the notice because the son of a co-worker worked at a different Jeep dealer and told me about it) they wanted me to take it back to NY; Et Cetera. And the AC thing was the final straw, because that time it was only in for a checkup before a trip, and we wound up without the vehicle for the trip. Lots more to the tale, but after that I started using a different dealership (of course many miles away due to Jeep's company rules about separation) instead of the one that was walking distance from my workplace.

I just HATE hearing stories like that. I was a Jeep Dealer for 25 years, and that's the kind of stuff that makes so many people mistrust all dealers. I'm sure that in Illinois it was a union shop, and in that case, even if the Dealer or General Mgr. was aware of it, there's very little they can do to discipline the employees that treated you that way. Management can't go back and speak directly to the technician or the service advisor...all they can do is talk to the union rep, and request that he look into it. I had a friend who was a dealer in Ohio, and his horror stories about dealing with the union made all of us from down here cringe. He couldn't even set the working hours for his own business without the approval of the union representative.

It was the service manager, and then the dealership manager that kept telling me that my service contract and warranty were only good at the original dealership.

I like that light temperature chart, I might just copy and print it so I can show people, but even with actual displays of light temperatures, there are people who just refuse to understand it. Just yesterday, since this thread started, I had a customer who wants to replace the LED lighting inside his new refrigerator with incandescent because he wants his food to look the same way it used to with his old fridge.

JP171 wrote:

jimlongley wrote:

JP171 wrote:

rotor wrote:Freon R12 was banned I believe in 1995. What facts should I check? Virtually every car air conditioner used R12 prior to the ban. The ban was to "protect the ozone layer" You could go to Mexico and get R12 at any time so I guess we only protected the ozone layer across the US. There were never successful retrofits for R12 cars so if you wanted an air conditioned car in Texas you had to buy a new one. Same thing is happening now with CO2 tax but countries like China can dump as much as they want into the atmosphere.

OK I can agree with the spirit, but not the facts, first of all "Freon" is a brand name owned by DuPont and it encompasses many types of refrigerant, so yes R-12 or refrigerant formula 12 is banned, because DuPont lost the patent not because of anything else no matter what the politicians say. so yea check your facts. All CFC's or chlorinated fluorocarbons were banned at that time including R-502, R-12, R605 and several others, HCFC's are due to be banned very soon as in the next 2 years. All this is occurring because DuPont lost the patents and its been couched in lies by many including Al Gore. The countries that are signatory to the Montreal Protocol and no Mexico and most 3rd world countries are not signers as they don't have large use of the product, agreed to phase out any and all refrigerants containing Chlorine because of Ozone damage as the chlorine binds with the Oxygen molecule and damages the Ozone by removing 1 oxygen molecule but its a lie that we are causing global warming

as far as successful retrofit, its not necessary to change crap, r-134A is not quite as good as 12 but the oil is miscible in small systems, does not cause problems and works just fine, on top of that it has been addressed to show you that again you need to check your facts there is a drop in replacement that works just as well as r-12 it costs more but works just fine same as there are several drop in replacements for r-22 the stuff you use in your house AC so please don't compare apples the libtards and don't speak on a subject you obviously know nothing about

Dupont never "lost" the patent, the patent expired, not quite the same thing, especially from someone so intent on getting the facts straight.

In 1996, my Jeep Dealer replaced the R12 in my 1993 Grand Cherokee with R134, swore it was a government requirement and that it was same for same, and it not only did not cool near as well, it did cause problems that had to be fixed by Jeep, but not until after I went to war with them. Of course the puncture that the dealership put in the evaporator when the tech rammed a thermometer into the coils might have had something to do with it.

ok so DuPont didnt loose the patent it expired and the gubbermint refused to allow another extension( as the fact that it was being produced under license by about 20 different companies) of the patents for the types of refrigerant that were phased out, not that it makes any appreciable difference to the effective action. I did in my post say that r 134a was not as good and do agree in a r 12 system it wouldn't be as good as there is a metering device that is calibrated for r 12 not 134a so yea you loose a little capacity. If a tech "rammed" a thermometer in the coils or coil, condenser coil then that was done out of spite not any functional need. Also R-134a will be pahsed out by the EU in 2017 and the US by 2020 its not patent driven this time but rather by a study that shows the refrigerant stays as as refrigerant for almost 6 months up in the O3 layer and causes Al Gore to spout more hot air

Just making sure you got your facts straight.

And yes, the tech did it out of spite. I was in the dealership arguing with the service manager about the fact that it was not cooling very well (this was before I knew what they had done) and he had the tech who had worked on the vehicle take me out to show me that it was cooling down to spec temps. The tech reached under the dash with his turkey thermometer and shoved it hard up into the works. That evening my wife complained about something dripping on her feet. I took it back to the dealership the next day, by which time all of the refrigerant had leaked out and the compressor locked up. Eventually they replaced almost the entire ac system, but they never did pay my wife for the shoes that were ruined by the refrigerant leaking on them.

The vehicle was purchased from a dealership in Albany NY, and then I was transferred to IL. When I took it in for scheduled service, the local dealership wanted me to take it back to NY for service; I called Jeep and they confirmed that my plan was good anywhere. When the power steering went out, under warranty, they wanted me to take it back to NY for warranty repair; I called Jeep and they confirmed that warranty repair was anywhere. When I took it in due to the trailer towing harness fusing together (a memo or service notice, I don't remember, but it was internal and I only found out about the notice because the son of a co-worker worked at a different Jeep dealer and told me about it) they wanted me to take it back to NY; Et Cetera. And the AC thing was the final straw, because that time it was only in for a checkup before a trip, and we wound up without the vehicle for the trip. Lots more to the tale, but after that I started using a different dealership (of course many miles away due to Jeep's company rules about separation) instead of the one that was walking distance from my workplace.

talltex wrote:

jimlongley wrote:
Dupont never "lost" the patent, the patent expired, not quite the same thing, especially from someone so intent on getting the facts straight.

In 1996, my Jeep Dealer replaced the R12 in my 1993 Grand Cherokee with R134, swore it was a government requirement and that it was same for same, and it not only did not cool near as well, it did cause problems that had to be fixed by Jeep, but not until after I went to war with them. Of course the puncture that the dealership put in the evaporator when the tech rammed a thermometer into the coils might have had something to do with it.

Your 1993 Jeep Grand Cherokee should never have had R-12 in it...they all came with the R-134a system from the factory...the first domestic model to do so. Chrysler had built the all new "state of the art" Jefferson Avenue assembly plant in Detroit, just for the Grand Cherokee. That was the first year for the Grand Cherokee and that was a big deal...it garnered a lot of publicity because it would never have to be retrofitted like the other 1993 models.

Sorry, mine came with R12 in it. Don't know if it was an early model (it was purchased in the spring of 1993) or what, but it most definitely did not come with r134, it even stated R12 in the manual. I don't have the vehicle any more, it only lasted me until 2006, so I can't look up the paperwork or whatever, but I still remember the battle with that Jeep dealership and with Jeep overall.

JP171 wrote:

rotor wrote:Freon R12 was banned I believe in 1995. What facts should I check? Virtually every car air conditioner used R12 prior to the ban. The ban was to "protect the ozone layer" You could go to Mexico and get R12 at any time so I guess we only protected the ozone layer across the US. There were never successful retrofits for R12 cars so if you wanted an air conditioned car in Texas you had to buy a new one. Same thing is happening now with CO2 tax but countries like China can dump as much as they want into the atmosphere.

OK I can agree with the spirit, but not the facts, first of all "Freon" is a brand name owned by DuPont and it encompasses many types of refrigerant, so yes R-12 or refrigerant formula 12 is banned, because DuPont lost the patent not because of anything else no matter what the politicians say. so yea check your facts. All CFC's or chlorinated fluorocarbons were banned at that time including R-502, R-12, R605 and several others, HCFC's are due to be banned very soon as in the next 2 years. All this is occurring because DuPont lost the patents and its been couched in lies by many including Al Gore. The countries that are signatory to the Montreal Protocol and no Mexico and most 3rd world countries are not signers as they don't have large use of the product, agreed to phase out any and all refrigerants containing Chlorine because of Ozone damage as the chlorine binds with the Oxygen molecule and damages the Ozone by removing 1 oxygen molecule but its a lie that we are causing global warming

as far as successful retrofit, its not necessary to change crap, r-134A is not quite as good as 12 but the oil is miscible in small systems, does not cause problems and works just fine, on top of that it has been addressed to show you that again you need to check your facts there is a drop in replacement that works just as well as r-12 it costs more but works just fine same as there are several drop in replacements for r-22 the stuff you use in your house AC so please don't compare apples the libtards and don't speak on a subject you obviously know nothing about

Dupont never "lost" the patent, the patent expired, not quite the same thing, especially from someone so intent on getting the facts straight.

In 1996, my Jeep Dealer replaced the R12 in my 1993 Grand Cherokee with R134, swore it was a government requirement and that it was same for same, and it not only did not cool near as well, it did cause problems that had to be fixed by Jeep, but not until after I went to war with them. Of course the puncture that the dealership put in the evaporator when the tech rammed a thermometer into the coils might have had something to do with it.

WildBill wrote:

03Lightningrocks wrote:

WildBill wrote:...."Abraham"......
True. It reminds me of trying to something for nothing. You get 70W for the price of 20W [but the bulb costs more!]

I have learned the hard way that temperature is possibly more important than lumens. At one point my living room looked like my reptile terrarium. I had to purchase new bulbs in the correct color range!

Very true! They should start putting the temperature on the packaging.

I tried using some "grow" lights, thinking that would be closest to sunlight, but I didn't like it.

Color temp is on all LED packages that I have seen, sometimes carefully hidden, and most CFLs. If there is no color temp on a CFL, you can assume it's in the 2700K range.

WildBill wrote:

jimlongley wrote:

talltex wrote:

jimlongley wrote:Working at Home Depot, I deal with people looking for incandescents and have to explain that the govt has mandated that they cannot use them any more.

I have been switching to LEDs for years, long before they were commonly available and were relatively expensive.

The government has mandated that they will not be available for sale...but if you have'em, you can use'em. I don't really care much, but my wife does...she hates flourescents, and over the last year or so has been buying up cases of incandescents and we probably have enough stockpiled in one of my storage facilities to last us many, many years.

Yes, you can use them if you have them, but once they burn out replacing them will be next to impossible.

With reference to wiring issues and such causing problems: I was a noise trouble shooter for the phone company for years, and getting the power company to admit that they were transporting a problem, much less causing one, can be a thankless and frustrating task. At one point I had to actually train a power company engineer in noise propagation in order to convince him to even try an experiment to prove the noise in my telephone facilities was coming from the power company's plant (which, BTW, was in serious need of re-engineering and reconstruction) and after proving to him that the problem was coming from his stuff, he eventually got it fixed. A couple of months later I called him about an issue we were having in a remote valley in upstate NY, and his first response was "We do not generate or carry noise." I did not bother to try to reschool him, I just escalated over his head immediately.

There are many things that can cause noise on the power lines, and some of that noise can be very high energy even if the 240/120 60Hz is near the nominal level. Spurious frequencies from both inside the home and outside can cause all kids of issues, including electric clocks that run fast or slow, fluorescent bulbs that do not last, "ghost" bulbs (usually fluorescent) that can be seen to glow in the dark and all kinds of other stuff.

I was actually writing a book on this stuff a bunch of years ago, but a ham friend of mine beat me to the punch. Purely co-incidental, we had both noticed the need and started at about the same time, he just finished first.

What is the title of the book?

AC Power Interference Handbook by Marv Loftness KB7KK

My book was tentatively titled "Interference Troubleshooting" and used cases that I worked on as well as those of others and gave practical advice to deal with power, phone, and other companies to clear up interference. I also had chapters explaining the theoretical basis for some of the common household interference that homeowners experience. I no longer have a copy of it, merely excerpts.

talltex wrote:

jimlongley wrote:Working at Home Depot, I deal with people looking for incandescents and have to explain that the govt has mandated that they cannot use them any more.

I have been switching to LEDs for years, long before they were commonly available and were relatively expensive.

The government has mandated that they will not be available for sale...but if you have'em, you can use'em. I don't really care much, but my wife does...she hates flourescents, and over the last year or so has been buying up cases of incandescents and we probably have enough stockpiled in one of my storage facilities to last us many, many years.

Yes, you can use them if you have them, but once they burn out replacing them will be next to impossible.

With reference to wiring issues and such causing problems: I was a noise trouble shooter for the phone company for years, and getting the power company to admit that they were transporting a problem, much less causing one, can be a thankless and frustrating task. At one point I had to actually train a power company engineer in noise propagation in order to convince him to even try an experiment to prove the noise in my telephone facilities was coming from the power company's plant (which, BTW, was in serious need of re-engineering and reconstruction) and after proving to him that the problem was coming from his stuff, he eventually got it fixed. A couple of months later I called him about an issue we were having in a remote valley in upstate NY, and his first response was "We do not generate or carry noise." I did not bother to try to reschool him, I just escalated over his head immediately.

There are many things that can cause noise on the power lines, and some of that noise can be very high energy even if the 240/120 60Hz is near the nominal level. Spurious frequencies from both inside the home and outside can cause all kids of issues, including electric clocks that run fast or slow, fluorescent bulbs that do not last, "ghost" bulbs (usually fluorescent) that can be seen to glow in the dark and all kinds of other stuff.

I was actually writing a book on this stuff a bunch of years ago, but a ham friend of mine beat me to the punch. Purely co-incidental, we had both noticed the need and started at about the same time, he just finished first.

Working at Home Depot, I deal with people looking for incandescents and have to explain that the govt has mandated that they cannot use them any more.

I have been switching to LEDs for years, long before they were commonly available and were relatively expensive.