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Right2Carry wrote:No state official has declared Obama a natural born citizen. You continue to say one official has but so far you have come up empty handed when trying to prove it.

First you tried to use one Hawaiian official and then when that was debunked you conveniently tried to rely on another official who claims to know what the other official meant to say, LOL. Why not have the first official come out and correct her statement?

You choose to believe your sources while I choose to believe my sources. Time will tell which one of us was right.

Once again you cast this in a "I'm right, you're wrong" light, but I have to wonder just what you mean when in one sentence you say I haven't provided a quote from an official, and in the next you say that the quote is due to one official claiming to know what the other meant. Which is it? Did the official state what you are claiming was based on mental telepathy or not? Is there a quote or is there not?

You never debunked anything in the first place, I was citing the official you say is using telepathy, are you saying that that official is not an official, or are you saying that I was supposed to provide you with name address and telephone number? The article states that a state of Hawaii official has stated that bambam's birth certificate shows him to have been born there, so now it's up to you to prove that official lied, not that that official used special divinatory powers to make the determination.

It's not a matter of believing sources, it's a matter of figuring out the importance of the issue in the overall scheme of things, something you seem not to be very good at.

You can wrassle with the pig all you want, but your constant haid splitting and poorly veiled personal attacks have become recursive and you can just go back through the thread and see all of my answers from here on, this is the last response you'll get from me in this thread.

Right2Carry wrote:Sorry Jim you still haven't proved anything. The statement of Fukino still stands, she never said that Obama was born in Hawaii. Sorry you can't get by that little fact. She purposely did not state that Obama was born in Hawaii so that those like you would blindly follow her statement.

Obama has duped many individuals, just add your name to the list. When the truth comes out and it will, I believe I will get the last laugh.

In case you didn't know it, it's a democrat who has been bringing the lawsuits and he still has 3 pending in the lower courts.

I wonder why Obama would pay lawyers to defend this when all he has to do is produce the paper? I guess he has money to burn just to burn.

I don't have anything to prove, a state official declared that bambam is a ciizen, not Fukino, but the person you claim is using mental telepathy.

And bambam hasn't duped me, I doubt his qualification to be president, but, as I have pointed out numerous times, this particular fight is merely wrassling with the pig, and bambam is the pig.

I don't much care whose bringing the suits, they are Quixotic.

And bambam is paying the lawyers so he can watch you wrassle with the pig while he sneaks in earmarks and anti-gun laws and whatever else he can get away with while people are running around chasing conspiracies. Why would he bother to produce a paper when it serves as such a great distractor.

Oldgringo wrote:

jimlongley wrote:

...Call it campaign rhetoric or call it out and out lies, but the broken promise that earmarks would be eliminated is not just "last year's business" it's evidence that the only change Obama intends to give us is pocket change, and darn little of that....

Speaking of which, how many know that Obama very quietly signed a PLA for all of the new stimulus construction projects. A PLA stating that the construction work should go to union workers. How's that for a good old fashion, politics as usual, Tammany Hall style payback?

Check it out
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/obama_labor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He's a Chicago politician. Do you know how to tell when a Chicago politician is lying? Well, that's pretty difficult, first you have to determine if the politician is actually alive, and then having done so, if the politician is alive, the politician is lying, and if the politician is dead, the politician is probably still lying, the only way you can actually be sure a Chicago politician is not lying is if you have conducted the cremation yourself and scattered the ashes in far outer space, Chicago politicians have been known to vote long after their deaths.

Right2Carry wrote:Well Jim I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this. I mean now that we have mindreaders who can state what Fukino meant when she made her statement, why rely on the words that actually came out of her mouth.

Lincoln and the other Presidents never had their citizenship questioned, but I bet if they had, they would have been more than willing to produce a birth certificate. I tend to believe Obama is hiding something. You can call me whatever you choose, but my experience in life has taught me that if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck.

Well, you can agree, but I don't. You have now decided that a Hawaii state official who stated that bambam was born in Hawaii is not sufficient to meet your request for a citation. You are splitting hairs, and resplitting, and resplitting, all over something that you're not going to win.

Now as to whether he's hiding something, I believe he is, but he is laughing at the efforts of you and your cohort because he knows you are chasing your tails. I believe he is hiding a health defect, and that it may have something to do with his school records.

OTOH, the thing that the electorate should be raising a hue and cry about is the already lengthening trail of broken promises. This morning's Dallas Morning News features an article about how he's letting those earmarks, that he promised would never happen on his watch, go by just to save time. His representative Peter Orzag says the earmarks are last year's news and we should just forget about it.

Follows my letter to the DMN, and cc'ed to whitehouse.gov:

Call it campaign rhetoric or call it out and out lies, but the broken promise that earmarks would be eliminated is not just "last year's business" it's evidence that the only change Obama intends to give us is pocket change, and damn little of that.

The spending bill does prove one thing though, Obama is surely not a Muslim because no devout Muslim would touch something laden with that much pork.

Rep. Eric Cantor is right, the president was elected based on his promises to change, and now that he got his mandate, the only thing changing is his mind.

Three zingers in one letter, I think that's a record for me, but you can bet that in 2012 it will be someone else's record the electorate will be looking at.

Jim Longley

Lincoln was indeed born in Kentucky, or so we are told, but not too many decades ago we were taught that he may have been born in Illinois, which was not a state at the time of his birth. I'll bet that there is not and never was, never has been, a birth certificate for Lincoln, or for that matter most of the other presidents born at home. My own father had no birth certificate, he was born at home in Washington D.C. and had a "TWIMC" that he had indeed been born alive.

So, something else to consider, is a native of Puerto Rico, or the US Virgin Islands eligible to become president?

mr.72 wrote:

jimlongley wrote: Why, instead, don't you prove that no Hawaiian official has ever said that bambam was born in Hawaii?

It is fundamentally impossible to prove that anything doesn't exist or did not happen.

However it should be absolutely possible to prove that some affirmative thing did indeed happen, or at least to agree that no such proof exists.

By the way, I don't have a dog in this hunt. It is my personal opinion that BHO does not have any valid proof that he was born in the USA but the majority of people have successfully painted anyone who thinks it matters as some kind of fringe conspiracy theorists. Winning in the courts is irrelevant if you have already conceded defeat in the court of public opinion and unfortunately that is where we are right now.

FWIW all of these people who are not so steadfast about the requirements for the president to be a natural born citizen are not likely to agree to any hardline interpretation of the 2A either. By hardline I mean, it means what it says. Remember when we start throwing out anything in the constitution, it becomes a slippery slope, you might as well throw the whole thing out. If there is no way to bring a lawsuit or some other remedy to address whatever challenge there might be to a candidate's eligibility, then there is no teeth or meaning to the requirement to the begin with. The law is not a meaningful law if there is no punishment or verdict to be determined.

Either way it's too late to do anything about it.

And it is my opinion, stated before, and unchanged by any argument presented by you or any of the others who seem to be willing to let themselves be cast as "fringe conspiracy theorists" on here, that it's a losing fight, that even those of us who tacitly agree with you see it as the ultimate in Quixotic ventures to even talk about trying to impeach on such a weak theorum, that it's wrassling with the pig. I, personally, would prefer not to be painted with the rest of you.

And I agree that throwing out any part of the constitution is risky business, but then again I haven't seen any part actually thrown out, all I have seen is the same sort of posturing and puffery that the Gore forces did after Bush was declared the winner of the election, nothing substantive.

Yes, there do seem to be no teeth in the requirement because even the Supreme Court didn't bother to insist that a birth certificate be presented, which is why I suggest that getting a law passed, or a new amendment, might be what it takes to prevent just this sort of thing in the future. It's not a very meaningful law, even if we were taught different in grade school.

There is a lot of twisting and spinning going on, declarations that this person didn't really say what they were quoted as saying, deep analysis of comma placement in published articles, and hair splitting beyond the range of an electron microscope's resolution, and none of it is being heard beyond the choir loft. His, probably senile, grandmother remembers him being born in one place, but his mother says different. His mother was or wasn't a citizen by this means or that, or wasn't in the country long enough before or after his birth. His birth announcement in the paper was a carefully crafted conspiracy that was placed just to forestall such an eventuality as his run for the presidency.

By the way, although Right2Carry states that anyone can have a birth announcement put in the paper, it used to be that the papers routinely published that stuff without being paid for it, a practice most of them stopped in the 60s due to scams and burglaries that were taking place when they ran such things as "Mr. and Mrs. Anonymous left for a six weeks vacation . . ." It was free, not paid, and I would be willing to be that the birth announcement was just that kind of thing.

I can also recall when it wasn't against federal law to murder a president, so the FBI had to be "invited" to take part in the investigation of JFK's murder, which of course was grossly fouled up by the Dallas Police Department when they failed to catch all of the shooters and then manufactured a coverup of their incompetence.

I ask again, do you know what state Lincoln was born in?

Right2Carry wrote:

jimlongley wrote:

Right2Carry wrote:

jimlongley wrote:

Right2Carry wrote:Again I ask you to cite the source and the quote from a Hawaiian official who has stated Barack was born in Hawaii. So far you have failed to do so.

You obviously haven't followed all of the links available.

Why, instead, don't you prove that no Hawaiian official has ever said that bambam was born in Hawaii?

Jim,

Why not just prove it since you have stated it? Are you taking a page out of the Obama plan? I asked you to provide the quote and cite the source of the hawaiian official who stated Obama was born in Hawaii, a pretty simple request if you ask me.

I am only asking you to back up what you posted, nothing more. If you feel that backing up your statements isn't worth your time, just say so.

You might want to check this out while you are at it.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atla ... usive.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And while you're at it, check these out.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/ ... rtificate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washing ... birth.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I still don't see the quote. It's ok to admit you are wrong, it happens sometimes.

You must have missed this part.

"So what if a Hawaii Health Department spokeswoman later clarified that Fukino meant that Obama was born in Hawaii?"

Right2Carry wrote:

jimlongley wrote:

Right2Carry wrote:Again I ask you to cite the source and the quote from a Hawaiian official who has stated Barack was born in Hawaii. So far you have failed to do so.

You obviously haven't followed all of the links available.

Why, instead, don't you prove that no Hawaiian official has ever said that bambam was born in Hawaii?

Jim,

Why not just prove it since you have stated it? Are you taking a page out of the Obama plan? I asked you to provide the quote and cite the source of the hawaiian official who stated Obama was born in Hawaii, a pretty simple request if you ask me.

I am only asking you to back up what you posted, nothing more. If you feel that backing up your statements isn't worth your time, just say so.

You might want to check this out while you are at it.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atla ... usive.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And while you're at it, check these out.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/ ... rtificate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washing ... birth.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Right2Carry wrote:Again I ask you to cite the source and the quote from a Hawaiian official who has stated Barack was born in Hawaii. So far you have failed to do so.

You obviously haven't followed all of the links available.

Why, instead, don't you prove that no Hawaiian official has ever said that bambam was born in Hawaii?

Right2Carry wrote:Jim I have a problem with you stating that Hawaii has stated that Obama was born in Hawaii. Please provide the exact quote and cite the source of the Hawaiin official who has stated that Obama was born in Hawaii.

For that I'll refer you back to the thirteenth post, on page one, of this thread.

mr.72 wrote:

Kythas wrote: The fact is, anyone born on US soil is a US citizen - hence, all the illegals who come here from Mexico to have anchor babies. Hawaii was US soil at the time Obama was born - therefore, he is a natural born US citizen and meets the Constitutional requirements to hold the office of President.

Without dealing with the other errors in your post, the charge is not that Obama, being born in Hawaii, is somehow not a natural born citizen. The charge is that Obama was not in fact born in Hawaii, but in Kenya, to non-American parents. Obama's relatives have made this claim (and yet either been silenced or retracted the claim) and one person who could have validated the claim independent of any other proof died a short while ago in Hawaii.

And sorry, Jim, but this is not a ruse thought up by Obama. In fact this whole debate is certainly not any benefit to Obama. And the fact that so many people even here on this forum cannot understand the difference between a Natural Born citizen and a Naturalized Citizen is why I say that the public at large, including probably the majority of this forum's membership, would see this distinction as splitting hairs or some wacky technicality which is why it was not pursued seriously by the mainstream of Obama's political enemies before the election.

And by the way, the reason Reagan et. al. did not have to produce proof of their citizenship is because they did not have a grandmother who reported that they were present at their birth in a foreign country to foreign parents. The fact is that this is a valid question that Obama refuses to answer. Now I don't blame him for refusing to answer, but I do blame the courts for not compelling him to answer and I frankly blame the Bush Justice Dept. for not investigating this claim and putting a lid on it when there was a chance. It's not like Bush was trying to preserve some political capital. He was a lame duck. No reason at all not to go vet this accusation that Obama was not born in the USA and either confirm Obama's legitimacy in the election or press charges of election fraud.

I never said it was a ruse thought up by bambam, just that he is taking advantage of the static being generated by the whole non-issue. His grandmother saying he wasn't born here should at a minimum be negated by his mother, father, and the state of Hawaii saying he was born there, and can you prove that Reagan wasn't born in Canada? How about Abraham Lincoln, which state was he born in?

The simple fact is that there is no proof of "natural bornness" incorporated in the presidential election process and unless and until someone gets a law or amendment passed to make it necessary for a candidate to provide a valid birth certificate to prove where they were born, then this kind of situation can and will exist. Until now it has been pretty much assumed that a candidate

Bambam's benefit from this is that he gets a lot of people concentrating on the issue, and when these same people also object to one or another of his new policies, he gets to point out their obvious location on the fringe.

Suffice it to say, 72, that your arguements haven't convinced me and I dislike bambam as much as anyone, so it's doubtful that you will convince his believers.

Keith B wrote: Unfortunately there are a lot of conspiracy theorists out there. They are not going to give up on anything they can latch on to and try get folks to go along with their rhetoric. If they did, they would be bored and have nothing to do.

Except wrassle with the pig.

mr.72 wrote: because nobody wanted to go on record as opposing the candidacy of the first viable black presidential candidate over an issue that the general public would perceive as a technicality.

If he truly was proven to be ineligible to be President, then it would be hard for anyone to call it a technicality.

OTOH, If bambam and his minions wanted to serve up a distractor, this will do. Bambam and his co-conspirators get a whole bunch of people concentrating and wasting money on essentially a non-issue while they could be pointing out real problems.

Once again, this is just like assuming someone is guilty just because they took the Fifth Amendment.

Bambam is under no obligation, Constitutional or otherwise, to present his birth certificate, did anyone even ask for Reagan' s, either Bush's, or anyone else's? Yes, this is probably the first time it has come up, which makes it an ideal opportunity to incorporate proof of citizenship into the law, which might very well block a second term for someone who was elected improperly the first time, but all this snivelling and posturing accomplishes absolutely nothing and he's laughing at you.

My grandpappy always told me not to get down in the mud and wrassle with the pig because it didn't accomplish anything and the pig enjoyed it, you guys are wrassleing with the pig.

Right2Carry wrote:

jimlongley wrote:

Right2Carry wrote:

jimlongley wrote:How about this little tidbit that I just came across?

HONOLULU — The state’s Department of Health director on Friday released a statement verifying the legitimacy of Sen. Barack Obama birth certificate.

The state has received multiple requests for a copy of Obama’s birth certificate. State law does not allow officials to release the birth certificate of a person to someone outside of the family. ...

“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record,” DOH Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said.

“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures. No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai‘i,” Fukino said.

Actually they only say they have his original birth certificate, no where does she verify he is a United States citizen by birth or is eligible to be POTUS. A child born outside of Hawaii can recieve a certificate of live birth in Hawaii in most circumstances. The Birth certificate long form is what is sealed and that may have some damaging information on it.

Who is Eligible to Apply for an Amended Certificate of Birth?

As provided by law (HRS §§338-17.7, 338-20.5), the following persons may apply for an amended certificate of birth:
A person born in the State of Hawaii who already has a birth certificate filed with the Department of Health and
has become legally adopted, or
has undergone a sex change operation, or
a legal determination of the nonexistence of a parent and child relationship for a person identified as a parent on the birth certificate on file has been made, or
previously recorded information in relation to the person’s surname and/or the father’s personal particulars has been altered pursuant to law.
A person born in a foreign country who has been legally adopted in the State of Hawaii.

http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/ ... hcert.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So you're saying bambam was adopted in Hawaii?

Why, pray tell, would Hawaii have his original birth certificate if he wasn't born there?

All you guys sound like the anti-gun nuts with the incessant nit picking and divisional analysis, and they are whiners.

They don't say they have his original Hawaii birth certificate, they state they have his birth certificate. If he was adopted in Hawaii then his original birth certificate from the other country becomes part of the long form that is sealed. A certificate of live birth is not his original birth certificate but one that was issued by hawaii. Read up on Certificates of Live Birth from State of Hawaii page that I cited.

Show me where any Hawaiian official has stated that they have his Original Hawaii birth certificate on file.

My son has to produce his birth certificate to play in little league. I wouldn't think it would be a problem for the POTUS to produce his instead of hiding it.

I would thiink so to, but I just don't see it as being anything more than a little tempest in a teapot.

So, you're saying he was adopted in Hawaii?

Nowhere do they state that it is sealed as part of an adoption record, just that they can't release it. Lots of nitpicking and hair splitting, no proof that any problem exists except a possibly well played gambit early in a chess match. Once again, there are a lot more things to fight him with than that which he chooses to tease you with, and that's all he's doing, teasing because he can.

Right2Carry wrote:

jimlongley wrote:How about this little tidbit that I just came across?

HONOLULU — The state’s Department of Health director on Friday released a statement verifying the legitimacy of Sen. Barack Obama birth certificate.

The state has received multiple requests for a copy of Obama’s birth certificate. State law does not allow officials to release the birth certificate of a person to someone outside of the family. ...

“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record,” DOH Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said.

“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures. No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai‘i,” Fukino said.

Actually they only say they have his original birth certificate, no where does she verify he is a United States citizen by birth or is eligible to be POTUS. A child born outside of Hawaii can recieve a certificate of live birth in Hawaii in most circumstances. The Birth certificate long form is what is sealed and that may have some damaging information on it.

Who is Eligible to Apply for an Amended Certificate of Birth?

As provided by law (HRS §§338-17.7, 338-20.5), the following persons may apply for an amended certificate of birth:
A person born in the State of Hawaii who already has a birth certificate filed with the Department of Health and
has become legally adopted, or
has undergone a sex change operation, or
a legal determination of the nonexistence of a parent and child relationship for a person identified as a parent on the birth certificate on file has been made, or
previously recorded information in relation to the person’s surname and/or the father’s personal particulars has been altered pursuant to law.
A person born in a foreign country who has been legally adopted in the State of Hawaii.

http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/ ... hcert.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So you're saying bambam was adopted in Hawaii?

Why, pray tell, would Hawaii have his original birth certificate if he wasn't born there?

All you guys sound like the anti-gun nuts with the incessant nit picking and divisional analysis, and they are whiners.

Keith B wrote:

jimlongley wrote:How about this little tidbit that I just came across?

HONOLULU — The state’s Department of Health director on Friday released a statement verifying the legitimacy of Sen. Barack Obama birth certificate.

The state has received multiple requests for a copy of Obama’s birth certificate. State law does not allow officials to release the birth certificate of a person to someone outside of the family. ...

“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record,” DOH Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said.

“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures. No state official, including Governor Linda Lingle, has ever instructed that this vital record be handled in a manner different from any other vital record in the possession of the State of Hawai‘i,” Fukino said.

If you will check out the Snopes link in my previous post on this, you will find that is in there along with a image of his birth announcement.

Yup, but I was looking in places other than Snopes.