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fickman wrote:

jimlongley wrote:Why endanger yourself and your family by keeping your gun in anything less than condition one?

Because, with my current setup, having a shotgun in condition one would endanger my family.

I don't have a safe yet, and there's no way my 21-month old daughter or 4-month old son can unlock the slide, ratchet the 12-gauge, turn the safety off, and pull the trigger. I can do this entire sequence in under two seconds. She couldn't even pick up the shotgun if she were to stumble upon it (which I have taken several measure to ensure she won't).

Same with the 1911 - she could turn that safety off if she somehow got a hold of it, and the trigger would be too easy for her to pull. Most likely, it would be with the grip against the floor and a little toddler thumb in the trigger area - which would mean the barrel is pointing right at her. There is zero chance of her racking the slide - my wife can barely do it (we're working on her technique).

The shotgun is under the bed in the bedroom. We keep a gate on the door to keep the kids from being able to go in there. We also always watch her while she's playing downstairs so she won't have access to our bedroom. If somehow she did, however, there are too many hurdles for her to overcome to discharge the current HD firearms. In condition one, she could - in theory - accidentally stumble upon the sequence to get it done. She's too young to memorize and apply the four rules. . . we're working on the alphabet song right now.

We plan to continually upgrade and adapt our home safety plan as the kids grow. . . when they reach the right age, they'll get repeated firearm safety lectures. When they reach the next right age, they'll get repeated firearm safety demonstrations. When they reach the next right age, they'll get repeated firearm safety practice.

If we introduced it to her now, she'd be curious and interested by it. Even if we taught her it was a "no-no," it'd be on her radar. She could go to it when being mischievous no matter how strict we are. Right now she doesn't even know they exist, and she doesn't have any toy guns to play with.

Understood, but I would not bet that an ingenious kid couldn't rack the slide on a shotgun.

Ross wrote:At night there's no other sound like that of a person jacking a round into a pump shotgun. Any BG that hears that and still sticks around deserves to be shot.

Besides my dog's nails clicking on the floor, and her best warning growl, the only sound a BG in my house at night is going to hear, before the loud bang, is the safety being taken off. Well, maybe an expletive or two mixed in with the statement that there is nothing worth dying for here so he had better leave, but I subscribe to the theory that if someone has broken into your house they aren't there for tea and cookies.

Why endanger yourself and your family by keeping your gun in anything less than condition one?

Stupid wrote:jim, we cannot continue this discussion without at least set some agreement.

Let's just agree that we all need to know how to operate your gun.

Which was my point to begin with.

Stupid wrote:

jimlongley wrote:And his final point negates all of Stupid's remarks.

YOU NEED TO KNOW HOW TO RUN THE GUN YOU GOT!

Stupid wrote:Shooting a semi auto is simpler and requires less training - this is an indisputable fact, which was my point

I dispute it, it's not a fact. A pump is no harder to operate, load, or keep on target than a semi-auto with the benefit of being able to rack the slide to clear jams. Nope, not indisputable, nor a fact.

Stupid wrote:2. Semi auto shoots faster and for the shooter, it's easier to keep the gun on target and do follow-up shots. Again, an indisputable fact. I used The Matrix to show how slow a person could operate the pump. Don't get too far about this.

I dispute this too, and the matrix shows nothing but the filmmaker's concept, not the true speed and accuracy of a pump vs a semi-auto. I have fired as fast as a semi-auto with a pump, and know others who have done the same. Attend a three gun match some time and see just how little difference there is between scores for pumps and semi-autos. Those scores are based on time and accuracy.

Stupid wrote:3. The sound of racking a shotgun would scare someone away - of course it would. It would scare a whole lot of RATIONAL people away. Well, if a person is rational, s/he wouldn't break into your house in the dark, would s/he?

Also not in the least indisputable, first of all, a rational home defender would do better to keep the gun with a round in the chamber, and just have to take the safety off, not have to rack the slide. Or are you suggesting that the semi-auto should be kept in conditon one while the pump is not? And if not, instead of having to rack the slide, you have to fumble, in the dark, with a little bitty cocking handle to charge the gun? Or are you planning for each to leave the action open instead, which subjects both to dirt entry and the semi to spring weakening.

Your arguments are unconvincing.

Stupid wrote:In a gun fight, I am not claiming I know anything because I don't, the first shot is often the key.

That's pretty obvious.

Stupid wrote:You know one major reason why perps shot more accurate than police?

I don't believe this is supportable, where do you get your data?

Stupid wrote:Don't you ever give away the advantage of the surprise!!! Action beats reaction! You want to ambush the bad guy and stop him/her before any harm is done to you.

Which is my point exactly, it doesn't matter what you use, learn it, know it, use it well, Clint Smith's demo with doubles and singles pretty much proves that, and that's a documentary, not a fiction movie.

The Matrix is nothing more than fiction, even the gun battle is merely staged, it proves nothing, "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." And then there are the hundred round magazines on the guns.

Don't give away the advantage of surprise (see above) and rack the slide, just quietly slip the safety off and take the upper hand.

And another advantage of a pump, semi-autos can't digest a mix of ammo, of different power levels, and lengths, they need to be tuned specific ammos, I have beaten Benelli semi-auto shooters that forgot this, shooters who would normally beat me only because they were better than me, not because they had a faster or better gun, and I beat them only because they had their gas ports set wrong. My Mossberg goes from target loads, to 3 inch 00 buck, to 2 3/4 inch slugs, to Aguila mini shells with no complaints at all, enabling me to set up a loading scheme based on what the typical home invasion scenario entails.

And I don't rack the slide and warn an invader.

And his final point negates all of Stupid's remarks.

YOU NEED TO KNOW HOW TO RUN THE GUN YOU GOT!

Stupid wrote:
When using a pump:

1. your pumping sound gives away your position and might cause your target to fire at the sound

So you're saying your shot doesn't give you away, just the sound of pumping a new round into the chamber?

Stupid wrote:2. pump action requires rigorous practice so that under stress you wouldn't under-pump and jam your gun - this happens A LOT

In several years of three gun and shotgun combat matches, I haven't seen it happen that much, where are you shooting that you have seen this so much?

Stupid wrote:3. when working with your pump action, without adequate practice, it moves your gun away from the target.

So? When responding to a threat in your home, without adequate practice, you're probably going to screw up in so many other ways it won't matter. Actually, I use a pump 12 gauge in matches, and have never, even when I was new at it, had a problem staying on target while pumping. I have had semi-autos throw me farther off target than my pump ever did.

Stupid wrote:4. some may even forget to pump in the adrenaline high.

Not if you're somewhat used to the gun. Yes, I'll admit that I transitioned from a pump to a semi-auto in a "strange gun" stage at a match some years ago, and couldn't figure out how to pump the semi until I realized that it loaded itself. But unless you are really used to a semi-auto and take up a strange pump and expect it to cycle itself, you will remember how to pump, particularly if you know your gun.

Stupid wrote:5. recoil is much worse than semi

Maybe, but that would also depend somewhat on the semi-auto, and the "much" is the contentious word, just how much is much? I have shot two different types of shotgun, a semi and a pump, and then transitioned to an M1 Garand, followed by an '03-A3 Springfield in the same match, and I can tell you I hardly noticed the difference. I know other shooters who have experienced the same.

Stupid wrote:6. follow up shots and speed of shooting are seriously impaired because of having to work with the pump. Given the choice, no self-respecting shooter would ever use a pump when shooting for speed. Watch any Skeet Shooting video on youtube.

Once again, practice is key, and I have seen several pump shooters, including the great Tom Knapp, outshoot semi-autos one on one. Your statement is almost as bad as standing next to Jerry Miculek and saying revolvers can't shoot faster than semi-auto pistols.

Plus, the pump gives you the capability of easily cycling the action in case of a misfire or jam, not real easy with a semi-auto.

As for your examples"

Stupid wrote:http://www.metacafe.com/watch/163920...amazing_shots/

That link got a message that the page requested didn't exist, and

Stupid wrote:Still don't believe me? Watch the movie The Matrix Lobby Shooting scene below. Should any of these police officers have used a semi-auto, Neo would be a piece of dead meat. Watch how slow the guy shooting the pump action shotgun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpc1SpDgUIA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Citing fictional movies where people run up walls and do flips through full auto gunfire that is destroying building structure around them makes me wonder if you have lost touch with reality.

Stupid wrote:Still not convinced? Just think hard about why all the armies of the world transited from single shot to bolt action, to semi-auto to full auto on their rifles. Why do they choose full auto over semi over single shot? Three reasons: speed of shooting, ability to keep the gun on target and simplicity of operating the semi and full auto action.

Consider that the US Army never even considered a pump action rifle in that transition, and then also take into account the fact that they have gone away from full auto fire to burst fire. Why? Because full auto does not stay on target. Because "speed of shooting" does NOT equal firepower. and if simplicity were truly a key factor, they would still be using break open actions. Semi and full auto firearms require much more care than their less complicated counterparts, and reward you with jams and malfunctions if you don't take care of them, even the highly touted Kalashnikovs.

But, really, The Matrix???

The latest Box o Truth review addresses just this subject, at least to some extent. They did penetration tests a while back, too.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu83.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some people think that the sound of a pump racking in the night would strike fear into a criminal's heart, but I, personally, don't intend to give that much warning, just the dogs growling and the "snick" of the safety being taken off, that's all they get.

As soon as I finish modifying my Mossberg's carrier so it will feed Aguila Minishells reliably, I will have a high cap shotgun for home defense.