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WildBill wrote:

jimlongley wrote:Considering other TX laws about the presence of objects in the passenger compartment of a vehicle, I don't see any way to interpret the guns being on the dash as not being in possession or control.

Forgive me for getting off topic. I am not arguing about the wisdom of putting guns on the dash or whether you can get them fast. My answer to your question is "because the LEO told me to put it there and leave it there."

You may be right by the letter of the law, but if I were charged with failure to conceal in similar circumstances, my defense would be "I was ordered by the police to place my gun on the dash and I did exactly what I was ordered to do." Being charged for failure to conceal would be like you getting pulled over on the highway by the police and then getting a ticket for illegal parking because you stopped.

ROFL, I actually have a friend who had just that happen. She was tooting along the NJ Turnpike at a high rate of speed, and when her radar detector went off, she noticed the patrol car in her rearview. He had clocked her on the speedometer and then turned the radar on. The first thing she did made us all laugh out loud long and hard when she told us, the cop was pointing to her radar detector which was beeping away merrily, and she decided that this must mean it was illegal, so she pulled it off the dash and threw it out the t-top.

She hadn't yet slowed down.

When she looked in the mirror again the cop was obviously perturbed and red facedly gesturing for her to pull over, so she did, and stopped right under one of those "NO STOPPING" signs instead of one of the pull offs farther along the road.

The cop stopped behind her and came up to tell her that when he pointed at the radar detector, all he was doing was trying to point out that he had her dead to rights, but he was going to cut her a break because she was a pretty lady and it was a nice day, and now he was going to have to ticket her for littering and improper parking, even if he didn't cite her for speeding.

She was still incensed the next day at work, not only did the officer give her a citation for littering, but he made her go back and pick up the radar detector, and then ticketed her for improper stopping too.

She was incensed.

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I still find myself wondering about the possibility that another LEO might come along and spot the guns on the dash and, regardless of the order of the original LEO, which I consider improper to begin with, and continue the proceedings.

Disarming is one thing, like I said, but just leaving the guns on the dash is not tantamount to disarming, it's foolish on a lot of levels.

WildBill wrote:

jimlongley wrote:It also seems to me that he was suborning a violation of the letter of the law. Guns sitting on the dashboard can hardly be considered to be concealed and I can't think of any way to interpret the law to allow a LEO to make CHLers display their guns in that manner.

I would think that if you were ordered by an LEO to put your handgun on the dashboard, you would be considered to be "disarmed" by the LEO. Therfore, the weapon would no longer be "in your possession" or "under your control." ANAL, but that would be my strategy!

Considering other TX laws about the presence of objects in the passenger compartment of a vehicle, I don't see any way to interpret the guns being on the dash as not being in possession or control. Remember that non-CHL car carry, criminal and "traveling," doesn't involve the gun being on the body, just within reach.

I could see a scenario where the officer had each actor, separately, move to the rear of the vehicle and disarm, placing the gun in the trunk, as disarmed, but not sitting in plain sight on the dash. I could also see that scenario as being way beyond necessary, but then I consider an officer disarming a CHL during a routine traffic stop as being unnecessary anyway - maybe in suspected DWI, or a road rage incident that rises above the "he said/she said" level, but not just speeding.

From my IDPA and other experience I would expect the gun to be more readily accessible from the dash than from concealment.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

WildBill wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:That's the first time I've heard of a LEO asking a CHL to handle their handgun. Chas.

Make that two. When I was pulled over mine was in the glove box. She asked for proof of insurance and I told her it was in the glove box and that I had a pistol in it. She asked me to take the handgun out and put it on my seat. When I got my insurance papers she instructed me to put the handgun back in the glove box and close it. After the stop was over she thanked me for being safe with my handgun. I still got the ticket.

Even that seems foolish from an officer-safety standpoint. However, at least in your situation there was a reason you had to get into the glove box (insurance card), but there was no reason to have two people put their guns on the dash.

Chas.

It also seems to me that he was suborning a violation of the letter of the law. Guns sitting on the dashboard can hardly be considered to be concealed and I can't think of any way to interpret the law to allow a LEO to make CHLers display their guns in that manner.