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BrassMonkey wrote:

BigBlueDodge wrote:Interesting thread. I do quite a bit of traveling in my job, so this thread is immensely helpful. I do have a couple of questions.

1. I see mention of a "hardsided container". Are there specifics about what constitues hardsided container? Does it matter if the gun case is made of hard plastic, or must it be made of metal?
2. I am unclear about the use of magazines as proper storages of ammunition. I understand that the ammo can be kept in boxes inside of the locked case. Can you keep loaded magazines inside the locked case as well?
3. Does the lock on the case have to have a key, or can it be a combination lock as well?
4. Does the locked case have to have any declarations that it contains a firearm? I seem to recall that a rule that any case that contained a firearm had to be labeled that it contained a firearm.
5. I am a little confused about the discussions of TSA being able to handle a firearm? Is it okay for a TSA agent to request that you open the case containing the firearm? Is it okay for the TSA agent to pickup and handle the firearm?

As I understand it:
1. Metal or plastic is fine
2. The TSA website mags are not an acceptable storage medium in and of themselves - You would have to enclose the loaded mags in something like a pouch. You can place the enclosed loaded mags inside the hard sided firearm container if you wish
3. Keys and Combos are both fine
4. Nope - They will give you a little piece of paper to place in the general vicinity of the case and some ticket agents will ask you to put one in the box
5. TSA can inspect the package but not handle the firearm. Doesn't mean they don't do it, but it is against their rules to handle the firearm itself.

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/ ... _1666.shtm

I will add:
1: The case does not have to be specifically intended to transport a firearm - I have seen Pelican cases (generic) and cases that had other intentions in their lives (camera) and even a Tupperware type thing that the gun owner had whipped up.

2: Mags in pouches that close was the TSA interpretation while I was there - this means an open top belt type mag carrier is not suitable, although I have both seen them and used them, and have seen mags packed in a gun case inserted in the foam packing - and I didn't say a word.

3: The rule is that the key or combo must be only in the possession of the owner, which would seem to disinclude the TSA locks that are available and since TSA is not supposed to need to get into the case after it's declared and locked, there is no reason for them to have a key - if the really really need to get in there, they should really have you there to open the case for them, and to witness the transaction. I hate to tell you how many "lip service" locks I have seen on gun cases - like luggage locks that can be opened by just about any key - and those I also usually let pass.

4: The locations of the declaration tags, if used, vary greatly.

5: TSA agents may ask you to unlock the box so they can look inside, but once it's open, TSA agents may "gently move" a firearm, by nudging it to the side to see if something is underneath it, but they are not allowed, under ANY circumstances, ANY circumstances at all, to handle a firearm, no TSA screener, no TSA Lead Screener, no TSA Supervisor, no TSA Screening Manager. If a firearm absolutely must be handled, a LEO must be called to do so, not even the owner is allowed to handle the gun, and there are no circumstances that modify this rule.

All of that said I would not spend a lot of time trying to confront them - I would mention that a certain action is a violation of their own rules, but I would, and have, get names and badge numbers of all involved and write numerous letters of complaint about their non-compliance.

jimlongley wrote:.

Don't know how I wound up quoting myself, my apologies.

Luggo1 wrote:Flew Lubbock to Dallas-Love round trip in April.

Zero hassles in either location, though now that it was mentioned above, I do believe the TSA guy in Lubbock wanted to see the gun, so I opened the locked case. No hassle though. This is indeed a violation of TSA's own rules?

The are some circumstances where a TSA screener may need to see in the case containing the firearm, such as if it obscures an area on the x-ray that may present a threat. I have had to open suitcases containing firearms because someone's travel alarm clock was positioned in such a way that their firearm made it difficult to determine whether the clock was connected to something else, which would be a threat. Such situations were always manually resolved when I was with TSA, but now they use something called OSARP, which is On Screen Assessment and Resolution Protocol.

We often used to take a bag where a firearm was obscuring something, and run it through a second time in a different position, usually resulting in a satisfactory resolution without having to open the bag.

Rarely, very rarely, once we were all trained properly, did we ever have to actually have the gun removed from its case, and in that circumstance we were required to call a LEO to handle the firearm. One time we had a shotgun in a case and the owner had a mini-cassette player, with headphones, in the case that he used to listen to talking books while in a deer stand (seems kind of dumb to me, I like to listen for my deer too, and whatever else might be going on nearby) and the cassette player, headphone cord, and some ammo (in the case with the gun but properly packed) lined up in such a way as to resembole an IED. One of our screeners got antsy, pretty much sure that he knew what the score was, and he would have been right, and got tired of waiting for a supervisor and a LEO to show up, so he took the shotgun out of the case to look. He got an instant three day vacation without pay.

The scenario presented by the poster above, where the screener gave him attitude about a bag that was zip-tied by the airline, and then handled his gun, is a prime example of a situation where the screener deserves to be disciplined. The screener did nothing to enhance the safety of the flight or passengers (if we have the whole story, not questioning that, just sayin') and violated several TSA rules, the worst of which was to handle a firearm.

TSA screeners, even those of us with impeccable firearms training credentials, are not allowed to handle firearms. I was qualified to teach NY State's Pistol Permit safety course to help qualify people to obtain a NY Pistol Permit, was a Gunnner's Mate in the Navy, and ship's armorer, and have a bunch of other firearms experience including several safety officer certifications, and I was never allowed, under any circumstances, to handle a firearm, even to check if it was loaded. I even used to take great delight in identifying various firearms' makes and models from their silhouettes during tests, suitably impressing others with this minor feat.

As a civilian I have had no compunctions about reporting my former co-workers for violations of the rules, including people who handled firearms, allowed knives through screening checkpoints, and other things I know they are not supposed to do. I even went so far as to report a couple while I still worked for TSA and was traveling on personal business.

Just because they enforce the rules doesn't mean they get to violate them.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" Juvenal 1st century AD.

And a famous satire by Zero Mostel during the red scare in the late 1940s.

BrassMonkey wrote:I know. I however deliberitly(sp) did not look at his nametag or the clock when it occured. I am personally ok with his action. Rules or not, I am ok with it in the name of safety.

Actually, one of the reasons for the TSA rule against screeners verifying that guns are unloaded is that TSA has declared it unsafe, as well as unnecessary, for screeners to handle firearms. It was a termination level violation of TSA rules and should have been reported.

BrassMonkey wrote:5/8/08 DFW Terminal C (DFW->FLL)
Declared to the ticketing agent, filled out a little form. he zip tied the suitcase. Sent me to a little TSA room. TSA officer got mad that he zip tied it. Opened the gun case, made sure it was unloaded. Re-zip tied the suitcase, have a nice day.

Interesting, did you get the TSA screener's name? That was a violation of TSA rules.