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VMI77 wrote:

My son could probably work his way into lawyering if he really wanted to make the necessary sacrifices. The thing is, law school pretty much beat out of him any desire he had to be a lawyer.

If so, it's better to level with himself.

Lawyering is not easy. You have to really be "into it" with intensity. If you are in it for the money, or the prestige, it may not be worth it. There are a lot of frustrations.

If you go at it for all you are worth, unstintingly, you can have a chance to do very well financially. If you are only looking at the money, it probably won't be.

Of the classmates who passed the bar with me, very few practiced law for very long. Some dropped out pretty quick, including the best student in our class. He was really good at taking exams, solving problems in real life, not so much. One fellow, married to another classmate, was just convicted and disbarred for embezzling client trust funds. He probably should have dropped out years ago.

jb2012 wrote:Gosh, I really want to go through with law school and do it, all of this talk about not getting jobs sure scares me though. Are people turning down the lower paying jobs in turn causing the low employment? or are the jobs just really not there at all? I would love to work for a D.A. and maybe after time run myself.

Let me make the point again, that if you don't want to be a lawyer so badly you will do it (go to law school and be a lawyer) no matter what, then maybe it isn't for you. You will save yourself a lot of trouble, and huge expense, to look inside your soul now and examine very carefully if this is what you really want.

When I did it, I didn't care what jobs there might be, whether law school would be pleasant or not, I just wanted to be a lawyer. Once I did that, the other uncertainties would take care of themselves. I couldn't foresee how it would work out, just that somehow it would. Sure enough, I never would have forecast all that has happened the last 40 years. Like Yogi Berra, my forecasting is none too good, particularly when it pertains to the future.

I didn't mind fighting with other lawyers who weren't sure they wanted to be there.

Many of his female classmates found employment, though even they are mostly underemployed. One, for example, got a job with an insurance company for $50K per year. Law school was free for him, but a lot of his classmates owe over $200K in student loans and they're not getting employment commensurate with their degrees.

.........

And to second what JALLEN said....my son loves going to school. He was a double major at UT and had a 4.0 GPA, but he hated law school.

A newly graduated lawyer is practically worthless. Most of the top students have never held real jobs, and very few have any real idea of what having your client's life and fortune in your hands entails. You are betting on their potential. Nevertheless, these guys think they ought to be taking cases to court right away. The DA can afford some rookies, on minor cases, and gradually bring them along as they make their mistakes and learn from those what they are doing.

Think about pilots. You start out with an instructor, who lends you his experience and judgment so you can live long enough to get some of your own. After years of flying in various situations, if you live, you are getting the hang of it and realize the true criticality of doing everything right, paying attention to important details, and reacting appropriately in situations not covered by "the rules."

I don't know how you tell who is going to make the grade as a top, reliable, trustworthy counselor, disciplined, with sound judgment.

I had a customer of our loan servicing outfit who was embezzled out of quite a few millions in real estate loans by a crooked loan broker, despite being represented by one of the largest, most reputable law firms in California. Those senior associates, with impressive degrees, impecable suits, ties, shined shoes, who should have been supervised by a partner at least, had no idea what they were doing, totally ignorant of the basic principles, like a bunch of monkeys trying to figure out a baritone sax. I was expecting to see this one on "American Greed" but the perp died so maybe it lost viewer interest. I believe the very large firm settled up with our mutual client. They threatened to sue me but after I mentioned how idiotic their associates' role had been, they forgot all about it.

SA_Steve wrote:Sounds like the law schools are now prep'ing their students for the bar exam. Used to be you had to take a 3rd party supplemental course in order to pass a state specific bar exam (which emphasizes the state's particular court system structure, procedures, customs and forms).

Not too much.

I can't recall anyone passing the CA Bar exam who had not taken a bar review course. It isn't required, but is foolish not to. The passing rate in CA is so pitiful, you need every advantage you can get. Each state differs in the bar exam to the extent, and the detriment of not passing so daunting, that it is a Real Good Idea [tm] to take a bar review course before the exam.

The bar review I took ~40 years ago lasted 3 weeks or so, and I thereafter spent an entire month doing nothing but study for the exam. I got up, got dressed, studied for ~4 hours, break for lunch, then back to the books, just like a job. Each evening, 3 of us got together for review of specific subjects, the schedule for which had been carefully planned in advance. The pass rate was less than half. All 3 of us in our study group passed on the first try.

There are three separate skill sets involved in completing law school, passing bar exams, and practicing law, with very little overlap.

The CA Bar (the only one I took) doesn't emphasize court structure, or forms. They look for thinking like a lawyer, weaving facts ststed in the question with general rules, minority views, etc to reach a logical and supportable conclusion.

True story. On one question, I misread it, estates/community property cross-over. I realized it as we were walking out, when I heard some others discussing it. The margin between passing and failing is so slim, a poor grade on any one question almost certainly dooms you. I spent the next few months in a despondent panic. I passed anyway, and all I can figure is that the grader saw that I had misread the question, analysed the facts as I read them, discussed the issues and arrived at a conclusion in a lawyerlike manner, so that I was not penalized too much. I got the highest grade in the state.

Going to law school is not something you "consider." Either you want to be a lawyer, no matter what it takes, or you don't want to badly enough to put up with the challenge.

BTW, my sister went to the law school now known as Texas A&M, a long time ago. They sent her a new diploma. She wasn't happy.

Anyway, going to law school is not what you think. It is a non-trivial project, very intense. The purpose is to get you to think like a lawyer. You don't learn laws; those change, and are different in each jurisdiction. It's more akin to brainwashing, and ruins you for honest work. You will spend a fortune, and may not like the result.

Once you are a lawyer, it gets worse. Half the people hate you, either the losers you beat, or the clients you lose for. The job of other lawyers is to make you look stupid, unprepared, foolish, greedy. Your job is the opposite, make them look stupid, unprepared, foolish and greedy.

I suggest you forget about it. Of course, if you want to be a lawyer so badly you don't care what I think, or anybody else, it may be for you.

In Texas, the best choice is UT. The shared experience of thousands of others will be a help in many subtle ways, open doors that can't be opened other ways. This isn't to say you can't be a terrific lawyer if you go elsewhere. I graduated from a small part time school in CA, and I had no trouble holding my own with the Stanford, Harvard, Yale, USC grads. I just wasn't invited to any of those parties, or to join those firms.

Choice of school is a factor, but as you build a reputation, that matters less and less. Once you know what you are doing, and everybody knows it, it won't matter what school you went to.

I don't have a lot of experience with criminal law. They never caught any of my clients.