Search found 4 matches

by Steve133
Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:50 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: How well would a firearm like the M4 perform in outer space?
Replies: 50
Views: 9595

Re: How well would a firearm like the M4 perform in outer sp

fizteach wrote:
Steve133 wrote:This discussion has officially passed the threshold of conversations that I can meaningfully participate in on my phone during quick breaks at work, so I'll limit my response to the following for right now:
fizteach wrote:I don't think the M4 would be classified as a black body.

Great discussion. Let's talk about some more physics :hurry:
Dude, I was a physics major. EVERYTHING (stars, trains, horses, M4s, etc.) is a spherical blackbody in a frictionless vacuum. And all constants are some power of ten multiplied by "about 3".

The "spherical cow" approach is close enough for government work, and certainly close enough for Internet spitballing about guns in space.
It's a good thing I didn't state unequivocably that the object would not be a black body. A simple as I recall statement would have sufficed rather than condescension.

But that's just the way I approach things.
Apologies, still not sure how that statement was taken as being condescending, but that certainly wasn't my intent. I was going for "yeah, it's not exact, but I'm just a dumb physicist, I can't do exact" comment - self deprecating jokes about only being able to think about spherical frictionless cows are pretty common in physics circles (abstraction to the point of uselessness is part of why I'm now an engineer instead of a physicist), but I guess that doesn't come across as well in text as it does in speech.

That said, this IS about the first time that a topic that I'm this uniquely qualified to talk about has come up on this board, can't promise I won't get carried away again....
by Steve133
Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:33 am
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: How well would a firearm like the M4 perform in outer space?
Replies: 50
Views: 9595

Re: How well would a firearm like the M4 perform in outer sp

This discussion has officially passed the threshold of conversations that I can meaningfully participate in on my phone during quick breaks at work, so I'll limit my response to the following for right now:
fizteach wrote:I don't think the M4 would be classified as a black body.

Great discussion. Let's talk about some more physics :hurry:
Dude, I was a physics major. EVERYTHING (stars, trains, horses, M4s, etc.) is a spherical blackbody in a frictionless vacuum. And all constants are some power of ten multiplied by "about 3".

The "spherical cow" approach is close enough for government work, and certainly close enough for Internet spitballing about guns in space.
by Steve133
Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:38 am
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: How well would a firearm like the M4 perform in outer space?
Replies: 50
Views: 9595

Re: How well would a firearm like the M4 perform in outer sp

The Annoyed Man wrote:As far as the effectiveness of lubricants in space, I have an anecdotal but I'm-pretty-sure-it's-true story to offer. As some of you know, my family was part of the Caltech/JPL community. My parents were professors there, and my father in law was a JPL engineer who designed and built guidance packages for a number of spacecraft. One of my good friends who was one of my racetrack pit-partners was also a technician at the Carnegie Institute facility on the Caltech campus, and they were building a gyroscope to be used in one of these guidance packages that was to be sent into space—I think it might have been the Hubble Telescope. The problem was how to lubricate the bearing points of the spinning gyroscope's axis. This is less of a critical issue for a gyroscope that is going to return to earth because of the sheer length of time the lubricant will have to hold up for one that is not going to return. They had a meeting about how to procure a lubricant with the properties of tackiness so that it would adhere well to the parts to be lubricated without migrating to places that did not need it, low volatility so that it would not evaporate away, the ability to absorb tremendous shearing forces, and yet the ability to maintain a thin film at the points of contact between moving parts. Brian got up, left the meeting, went out to the parking lot, and retrieved the can of Bel-Ray motorcycle chain lube from under the seat of his motorcycle. He brought it into the meeting, explained its properties, demonstrated it, and—according to what he told me—the decision was reached to use tiny amounts of motorcycle chain lube at the points of contact. Instead of spending thousands of dollars on research and sophisticated materials, a $3.95 can of chain lube saved the day.

I love those kinds of stories, and I have another one involving my father in law, who saved the government from spending a million dollars on a spacecraft part with a $1.98 piece of wood.
Yeah, last time I was hands-on with any space hardware (which was about 5 years ago), we just used Braycote for everything. Not quite as mundane as motorcycle chain oil, but not exactly gee-whiz exotic super-science stuff either. Cost and availability seem almost completely independent of how well something will work in space - some really expensive stuff just plain won't work, but sometimes the stuff you buy off the shelf at the auto parts store is just fine.

Regarding the idea of heat-transfer, if you'll let me return to my physics-major roots for a bit:

There are 3 mechanisms of heat transfer: conduction (which we're all familiar with - works by direct contact), convection (which we're probably still all familiar with - depends upon circulation of a working fluid), and radiation (which, as TAM pointed out, doesn't require any sort of transmission medium). In a vacuum, radiation is the only one that works. Unfortunately, it's also the least efficient. So TAM, your basic premise is correct. One subtlety is that you don't need to be visibly glowing to radiate energy - low-energy wavelengths like infrared work okay, too. It's been a while since I've had to think about this, but pretty sure that the Stefan-Boltzmann Law says that you radiate more energy at higher temperatures (which makes sense), so you'd reject more heat once the thing got hot enough to start glowing, but you'd be doing so before then as well. It would still probably take a pretty long while to cool down once you reached that point.

For reference, we use giant radiator panels to keep the International Space Station cool (I actually work with those) - radiator systems are a pretty basic part of spacecraft design. If you purpose-built a firearm to use in space, you'd probably have to design a cooling system for it.
by Steve133
Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:57 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: How well would a firearm like the M4 perform in outer space?
Replies: 50
Views: 9595

Re: How well would a firearm like the M4 perform in outer sp

Yeah, this is one of those things that people who know nothing about guns or space don't think about, people who know a decent amount about both think correctly about, and that people who know a little bit about both think incorrectly about.

Of course, just making sure the cartridge propellant burns is only part of it - most lubricants aren't vacuum-rated, so there's a chance that whatever was used on that gun would boil off or flash-freeze, so the action could lock up. Outgassing of polymer materials is another potential issue, but that probably wouldn't have a huge impact on function. Might not get more than one shot (or even that if the firing pin was stuck, I guess). There's a (possibly-apocryphal) story about early Apollo astronauts sorting through a standard aircraft survival kit to see which items would be useful if they crashed on the moon - the matches were useless, but they thought they coups use the pistol as a means of propulsion.

Incidentally, I think that the Soviets were only going to use the cannon on the Almaz stations against American anti-satellite weapons, and that they only test-fired it once. At least, that's the official story....

Return to “How well would a firearm like the M4 perform in outer space?”