Is "Shall Issue" in NY's future?

[C-dub]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/05/24/ju ... latestnews" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The NYPD denied Knight’s application, saying that he had been selling firearms without incident for years and that he failed to show he’s in more danger than others in his profession.

It's logic like this that has been getting overruled in appeals and federal courts in other areas around the country. California, for one place. If the dealer pushes it further the same thing could happen in NY.

[jimlongley]

Probably not.

NY has judges in place who will consistently deny permit applications for any reason at all, and other judges in higher courts that support them, and so on. The last case like this (2013) that got as far as SCOTUS was declined by them.

And believe it or not this is an improvement over the way things were decades ago. We had a judge (John J. Clyne) in Albany County who would routinely just move all permit applications to the bottom of his docket, and although there were several judges who were supposed to get the applications in rotation, for some reason they kept going preferentially to him (machine politics). If forced by odd circumstance to actually process an application, he would deny it unless the applicant had enough political pull, and it needed to be a LOT of political pull (machine politics). If you wanted to get a pistol permit in Albany City or County, the best thing to do was be hired as a part time armed security guard or establish residence in a county that had a more lenient approach to issuing permits. There was a full time pistol permit "licensing officer" out in the Buffalo area who was an employee of the sheriff's office, not a judge, and that one would issue you a permit just for being able to stand up long enough to get the paper on his desk. I knew people who did both, with limited success. One of the problems was that a change of address approval was not guaranteed, and another was that if they wrote on the license, there being no mechanism to limit it otherwise, that the permit was only good if you were on the job.

We sued this judge multiple times, one of the first suits being for not putting a reason for denying the permit (not required under the law BTW) and when we won, he denied the permit because the applicant did not own a pistol. The "Catch-22" conundrum being that in order to purchase a pistol, or even to handle one in a gun store, you had to have a permit for that pistol. We sued a second time and lost because the appeal judge said that the applicant did not have to be in possession of the pistol, but that, since permits were issued for the specific gun not to the person, the gun actually had to have been paid for.

If the dealer has the gun in his inventory, all well and good, if you don't get your permit, he can charge you a small administrative fee, give you your money back, and put the gun back in inventory. If it's a gun he has to order, unless he has some reason to believe that having that gun in inventory to sell to someone else, he is unlikely to want to order it for you if there is any chance at all that you won't get the permit. And that is always a high likelyhood. BTW, the serial number of the gun has to be on the application, so you can't just have an order in that has not been fulfilled.

As chairman of a little political action committee in one gun club, I found myself thrust to the fore when all of the clubs in the county, and there were many, formed a coalition to see if we could force this guy to issue permits. We actually had kind of a pipeline into his office because one of his clerks was the wife of one of our members and she kept us posted on some of the nefarious doings regarding pistol permits.

In the mid 70s we had a young lady join our club who we thought fit the bill as a test case, and she was willing, with our backing. She was an active and highly rated pistol target shooter at the Blue Trail Range in CT. She already owned guns and she fit a laundry list of other qualifications. She applied, was denied, we sued again because he didn't include a reason, his response was that the previous case in which he had to provide a reason applied only to that case. He lost again, and he put down a reason that she was too young (in her mid 20s). We sued again, he put down that she had young children in the house. We sued until our funds ran out, winning virtually every time, and yet he went right on finding reasons to deny.

Eventually she and her husband moved.

We even won a case where we sued because the licensing officers were hand writing on the face of the permit that it was only good under some circumstances, such as hunting, or fishing, or target shooting, or as a security guard, as "defacing" the document. The following year the NY legislature passed a change to the law allowing the licensing officers to add such limitations as they saw fit.

In NY it's virtually a losing battle because the overwhelming mass of political weight is concentrated in NY City.

[C-dub]

Thanks Jim.

I saw where you provided all or most of this same information in an older thread and considered adding this link to that thread, but it really was about something else and I've been trying a little more to not derail threads lately.

You are probably correct about the likelihood of the situation in NY changing. However, things have been swinging back in favor of gun rights advocates. It sure would be nice to see NY change and to recognize other states' licenses. I might actually think about going back up there to see some old friends and take my wife and daughter to see some old hang outs.

[jmra]

Wild horses couldn't drag me to NY.

[C-dub]

Wild horses couldn't drag me to NY.

Upstate is very nice, but as long as my guns aren't welcome I share your sentiment.

[Jeff B.]

New York State used to be a fantastic place. I grew up on Long Island, when the fishing (salt and fresh water) was great, you could still hunt birds, deer and water fowling was common. I've been back a couple of times on business and would not live there unless it literally was a matter of feeding my family.

Jeff B.

[jimlongley]

Wild horses couldn't drag me to NY.

Upstate is very nice, but as long as my guns aren't welcome I share your sentiment.

It took me a while to get away.

I also belonged to another organization trying to get upstate split from NY City. It didn't work.

[SATX-Scrub]

I've declined jobs in Maine and Vermont because I'd have to pass through NY. Anyone know a way around?

[C-dub]

I've declined jobs in Maine and Vermont because I'd have to pass through NY. Anyone know a way around?

Only by boat or plane or Canada.

[SATX-Scrub]

I've declined jobs in Maine and Vermont because I'd have to pass through NY. Anyone know a way around?

Only by boat or plane or Canada.

I knew that, my sarcasm didn't show through! I live in my Airstream and by New York standards I'd need to ship everything to myself, and I added that all up and it just aint worth it!

[C-dub]

I've declined jobs in Maine and Vermont because I'd have to pass through NY. Anyone know a way around?

Only by boat or plane or Canada.

I knew that, my sarcasm didn't show through! I live in my Airstream and by New York standards I'd need to ship everything to myself, and I added that all up and it just aint worth it!

Yours did, but I guess mine didn't.

[Oldgringo]

I've declined jobs in Maine and Vermont because I'd have to pass through NY. Anyone know a way around?

Yep, that's what keeping us from a Fall RV'n trip through the New England states.

[harrycallahan]

[quote="C-dub"][quote="SATX-Scrub"][quote="C-dub"][quote="SATX-Scrub"]I've declined jobs in Maine and Vermont because I'd have to pass through NY. Anyone know a way around?[/quote]
Only by boat or plane or Canada.[/quote]

I knew that, my sarcasm didn't show through! I live in my Airstream and by New York standards I'd need to ship everything to myself, and I added that all up and it just aint worth it![/quote]
Yours did, but I guess mine didn't. :lol:[/quote]

Don't worry,it was plain as day. :cool:

[Taypo]

I grew up in Upstate NY, and I think the similarities to Texas would surprise a lot of you. That being said, NY State exists as a support system for the City. Until NYC becomes the 51st state ala DC, the vast majority of good people in NY are going to suffer

[Oldgringo]

I grew up in Upstate NY, and I think the similarities to Texas would surprise a lot of you. That being said, NY State exists as a support system for the City. Until NYC becomes the 51st state ala DC, the vast majority of good people in NY are going to suffer

Best I can tell, the good people in Illinois feel the same way about Chicago?