Shooting at Twin Peaks in Waco

[VMI77]

Would you guys be saying the same things about some of them being good guys if it was the Crips and Bloods that shot it out in a busy shopping center?

I'm not saying any of them are good guys, I'm merely advocating following the law. The government doesn't get to decide who are good guys and who are bad guys and apply the law one way to the good and one way to the bad. The law is supposed to apply to everyone. There is either probable cause for an arrest or there isn't.

I think they have probable cause to attest then. Probable cause doesn't require them to be guilty before they are arrested.

Tell us who you would have arrested and who you wouldn't have. See my comments to CB.

Oh, I think the police, being there, knew essentially who the ring leaders and were, and those involved in the fighting. I'm sure they knew who the bosses were even before they showed up. But hey, if it was a mass brawl and all 170 who were arrested were fighting then fine. It doesn't look that way though, since only one person in the mug shots looks like he sustained any injuries. Obvious arrests: those observed participating in the fighting, gang leaders, and anyone with a gun, knife, or illegal weapon. Everyone else is identified before being released.

The Austin Statesman says early on that there was an initial arrest of 20 near the scene of the shooting....with 25-75 being detained as witnesses or possible suspects. Given that 9 were killed and 18 injured (not included in that group of 20) that suggests the police collared those actively involved and shipped them off to jail early on, so I'd guess those were most if not all of the surviving participants in the fighting.

Another way to deal with the situation might well be to arrest the 170 that were arrested....with charges related to the degree of participation and offense. So, perhaps, and I have to speculate here because the information isn't available, 30 or 40 are arrested for capital or other serious offenses, those with illegal weapons for illegal weapons offenses, and the rest for lesser offenses such as disturbing the peace, and bail amounts are assessed in accordance with the seriousness of the charges. As others have pointed out and I agree, the arrests are not so much of an issue as the absurd bail, which is way out of proportion to how bail is normally assessed.

[mojo84]

There have been multiple reports of the cops meeting with the leadership of some of the organizations recently to get them to settle their differences without violence. This has been brewing for some time now. Those that showed up were well aware why they were there and that was a good chance of it getting ugly real quick. It is very naive to think they were all just out for a joy ride and all heck just happened to break loose unexpectedly when they stopped by for some nourishment.

http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/crime/20 ... /27531291/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It noted that Cossacks members had recently "started wearing the Texas patch on the bottom rocker of their vests without the approval of the Bandidos," the bulletin said. "Traditionally, the Bandidos have been the dominant motorcycle club in Texas, and no other club is allowed to wear the Texas bar without their consent. If the club refuses, Bandidos members will attempt to remove the vest by force from the member."

The memo detailed the escalating conflict:

March 22 – About 10 Cossacks forced a Bandido to pull over along Interstate 35 near Lorena. They then attacked the Bandidos member with "chains, batons, and metal pipes before stealing his motorcycle."
March 22 – A group of Bandidos confronted a Cossacks member fueling his motorcycle at a truck stop in Palo Pinto County. After the Cossacks member refused to remove the Texas patch from his vest, the Bandidos attacked him "by striking his head with a hammer and stealing his vest."
April 7 – The FBI El Paso Division received information from law enforcement that about 100 Bandidos planned to travel to Odessa on April 11 in order to start a "war" with Cossacks in the area.
April 9 – The FBI San Antonio division received information that Bandidos had "discussed the possibility of going to war with Cossacks" and "instructed members to be on the lookout for members or associates of the Cossacks" during the April 11 weekend biker rallies held in Amarillo, Hondo, Midland and Odessa.
April 24 – The FBI Dallas division released a report regarding three recent fights between Bandidos and Cossacks in East Texas in Longview, Kilgore and Quitman.
The bulletin states that both groups had been warned that there would be an increased law enforcement presence during the April 11 weekend in Odessa.

"The warning did little to curb the Bandidos presence, however, and it was estimated that 200 to 400 Bandidos from Texas and New Mexico rode into the Odessa area," the bulletin said. "There were no reports of Cossacks members in the area, and no significant violent activity was reported."

[VMI77]

Would you guys be saying the same things about some of them being good guys if it was the Crips and Bloods that shot it out in a busy shopping center?

I'm not saying any of them are good guys, I'm merely advocating following the law. The government doesn't get to decide who are good guys and who are bad guys and apply the law one way to the good and one way to the bad. The law is supposed to apply to everyone. There is either probable cause for an arrest or there isn't.

They've booked over a thousand, A THOUSAND, weapons into evidence. Probably just a few bad apples that brought all of that in.

Where did they find weapons...Hidden in bags of chips, flour, crammed in toilets. That's what law abiding citizens do. I know I hide my EDC in a toilet every time I go out to eat.

These were not good guys.

Also, if four guys are together to cause trouble and one unexpectedly murders someone, all of them are charged with murder.

If they were there to meet about criminal activities and mass murder happens, all are guilty by association. I'm not saying all will be charged or convicted, but there is PC to hold/charge them all currently.

Oh come on. Talk about a non-sequitur....my first sentence was "I'm not saying any of them are good guys."

So each guy arrested had more than 5 weapons on him? This article http://www.newsmax.com/US/thousands-wea ... id/645752/ says 1,000 "including firearms and knives." Including of course, the dreaded AK-47. So what are we calling weapons here, since obviously, they weren't all guns and knives. Brass knuckles and chains? I don't think you're going to hang intent to commit murder on a guy with brass knuckles. Five weapons per person...really? Weapons in potato chip bags. With that these guys look like something out of a bad movie script.

I don't get your remark about the four guys being charged with murder since you follow it by saying you don't believe all will be so charged or convicted. Obviously this situation is not the same as four guys robbing a liquor store that ends up with one killing the cashier and all being charged with murder. Here, from the same article, is what an ex-DA says:

"A $1 million bail for 170 people is ludicrous on its face," said former Galveston County Assistant District Attorney Michael Haskell said.

Under our legal system it doesn't matter how good or bad they are. They either committed a crime and there is evidence that will convict them in a court of law or there isn't.

[cb1000rider]

I'm not saying "see if those charges stick". I saying that by being there, professing membership, multiple murders and a history of turf wars between the two gangs, it is reasonable to arrest them and charge them the way they have been. Where in the world do you come up with me me being a cop? I've been scolded on here more often for being too hard on cops in the past. More violent crime than a multiple murder in a public place with innocent bystanders nearby? I'm sure some of those arrested will have their charges added to or changed to murder. I'm sure if your family had been nearby, you would have a different opinion about how this was handled by the police.

The patches profess membership. Why not round up everyone with a colored bandana in LA?
What exactly was the criminal enterprise that occurred in Waco that wasn't present before this incident? The theory that they all willingly showed up at a public venue to knowingly shoot it out - I don't buy it... That's what they charged everyone with.

By the looks of many of those photos, I fail to see how this was a mass melee that involved 170-180 people... And honestly, with JUST bikers killed and some number of those shots being head-shots - we've either got some bikers that are good/lucky shots, or there was an outside ballistic source.

I though for some reason you were or had been a LEO.. Maybe I just got wires crossed.. No offense was intended or implied.

Your comment about the looters is ridiculous. If the looters were killing people, I would expect the cops to shoot them and arrest the others. Also, most of the looters aren't professing to be outlaw motorcycle club members and advertising that on their clothing.

So who does a LEO shoot in this situation? You've got people shooting people. Who is the murderer and who is defending himself? You can't exactly get in close enough to tell people to stop. I don't have a clue as to how that should get handled.

[Oldgringo]

It appears we have a rumble in the making here on the CHL Forum.

[VMI77]

[The patches profess membership. Why not round up everyone with a colored bandana in LA?

You don't even have to rely on clothing. Most of them have gang tattoos. Obviously gangs are a big problem, so, why don't they round them up? Is it because the law doesn't allow it or because they don't want to for some reason (they being the political and law enforcement leadership)?

[mojo84]

It appears we have a rumble in the making here on the CHL Forum.

I feel like the poor sweet family men Cossacks after fighting it out with the Bandidos.

[TVGuy]

[quote="VMI77]

So each guy arrested had more than 5 weapons on him?

On average, yes. Are you disputing what was booked into evidence?

This article http://www.newsmax.com/US/thousands-wea ... id/645752/ says 1,000 "including firearms and knives." Including of course, the dreaded AK-47. So what are we calling weapons here, since obviously, they weren't all guns and knives. Brass knuckles and chains? I don't think you're going to hang intent to commit murder on a guy with brass knuckles. Five weapons per person...really? Weapons in potato chip bags. With that these guys look like something out of a bad movie script.

I can legally walk down the street with a handgun, an AK-47, or a legal knife. Brass knuckles are illegal. You're not doing a good job of making your point.

I don't get your remark about the four guys being charged with murder since you follow it by saying you don't believe all will be so charged or convicted. Obviously this situation is not the same as four guys robbing a liquor store that ends up with one killing the cashier and all being charged with murder. Here, from the same article, is what an ex-DA says:

"A $1 million bail for 170 people is ludicrous on its face," said former Galveston County Assistant District Attorney Michael Haskell said.

Under our legal system it doesn't matter how good or bad they are. They either committed a crime and there is evidence that will convict them in a court of law or there isn't.

He's also now a defense attorney, you would expect him to say that.

How are the groups not associated? They were there to conspire to commit criminal activity. They are voluntarily part of the same group or club, as evidenced by the vests. They knew the potential for violence - if they didn't they are too dumb to be operating a motor vehicle. Violence occurred, resulting in the murder of several individuals. Therefore, all are part of a group and responsible for the deaths.

[VMI77]

There have been multiple reports of the cops meeting with the leadership of some of the organizations recently to get them to settle their differences without violence. This has been brewing for some time now. Those that showed up were well aware why they were there and that was a good chance of it getting ugly real quick. It is very naive to think they were all just out for a joy ride and all heck just happened to break loose unexpectedly when they stopped by for some nourishment.

http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/crime/20 ... /27531291/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It noted that Cossacks members had recently "started wearing the Texas patch on the bottom rocker of their vests without the approval of the Bandidos," the bulletin said. "Traditionally, the Bandidos have been the dominant motorcycle club in Texas, and no other club is allowed to wear the Texas bar without their consent. If the club refuses, Bandidos members will attempt to remove the vest by force from the member."

The memo detailed the escalating conflict:

March 22 – About 10 Cossacks forced a Bandido to pull over along Interstate 35 near Lorena. They then attacked the Bandidos member with "chains, batons, and metal pipes before stealing his motorcycle."
March 22 – A group of Bandidos confronted a Cossacks member fueling his motorcycle at a truck stop in Palo Pinto County. After the Cossacks member refused to remove the Texas patch from his vest, the Bandidos attacked him "by striking his head with a hammer and stealing his vest."
April 7 – The FBI El Paso Division received information from law enforcement that about 100 Bandidos planned to travel to Odessa on April 11 in order to start a "war" with Cossacks in the area.
April 9 – The FBI San Antonio division received information that Bandidos had "discussed the possibility of going to war with Cossacks" and "instructed members to be on the lookout for members or associates of the Cossacks" during the April 11 weekend biker rallies held in Amarillo, Hondo, Midland and Odessa.
April 24 – The FBI Dallas division released a report regarding three recent fights between Bandidos and Cossacks in East Texas in Longview, Kilgore and Quitman.
The bulletin states that both groups had been warned that there would be an increased law enforcement presence during the April 11 weekend in Odessa.

"The warning did little to curb the Bandidos presence, however, and it was estimated that 200 to 400 Bandidos from Texas and New Mexico rode into the Odessa area," the bulletin said. "There were no reports of Cossacks members in the area, and no significant violent activity was reported."

Let's take just the April 7 and 9 incidents. Isn't this the same FBI that rounded up and arrested the Hutaree militia? So how come they didn't round up and arrest these guys? An earlier post said the word was out for the gangs to murder police. The Hutaree was rounded up and arrested by the FBI on the charge that they intended to murder a police officer. Why are 9 militia members a bigger threat than 100 Bandidos who plan to start a war with another gang? Why isn't the FBI arresting the gang members from the gangs that threatened to attack the Waco PD? Why only "increased law enforcement presence?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutaree

I don't have any answers but it sure appears that at least the Feds have different agendas that don't have anything to do with the law when it comes to arresting gang members . And BTW, none of the Hutaree were convicted of the charges for which the FBI arrested all of them.....7 of the nine were acquitted and 2 were convicted on weapons charges and sentenced to time served.

[treadlightly]

Are you disputing what was booked into evidence?

I think the ATF did. Sounds like the weapons count was downgraded to 300 and change when the ATF joined the investigation.

http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2015/05 ... cene.html/

I'm not a fan of the ATF, although I'm sure they have done some good. Just sayin', I'm not sure I trust them.

[VMI77]

[quote="VMI77]

So each guy arrested had more than 5 weapons on him?

On average, yes. Are you disputing what was booked into evidence?[/quote][/quote][/quote]

No, just pointing out the absurdity. You can only use one weapon at a time. Hard to tell from the generalities given but most or many apparently weren't carrying guns. Partly why I said they look like the bad guys in a bad movie script being ridiculous to the point of almost being parody.

After I posted I read the comment above mine. I did think from the start that the 1,000 number was ludicrous...I just didn't know where the exaggeration lay --bad reporting, error, exaggerated claim of what constitutes a weapon, etc. 318, including knives and brass knuckles, ok, we're back in the land of reason.

This article http://www.newsmax.com/US/thousands-wea ... id/645752/ says 1,000 "including firearms and knives." Including of course, the dreaded AK-47. So what are we calling weapons here, since obviously, they weren't all guns and knives. Brass knuckles and chains? I don't think you're going to hang intent to commit murder on a guy with brass knuckles. Five weapons per person...really? Weapons in potato chip bags. With that these guys look like something out of a bad movie script.

I can legally walk down the street with a handgun, an AK-47, or a legal knife. Brass knuckles are illegal. You're not doing a good job of making your point.

The remark about the AK-47 alludes to the fact that it is a favorite, for propaganda purposes, of the MSM anti-gun campaign. Brass knuckles may be illegal but they're not going to be considered by most people as being in the same category of guns and knives when it comes to committing murder. Not sure what point you think I was trying to make.

I don't get your remark about the four guys being charged with murder since you follow it by saying you don't believe all will be so charged or convicted. Obviously this situation is not the same as four guys robbing a liquor store that ends up with one killing the cashier and all being charged with murder. Here, from the same article, is what an ex-DA says:

"A $1 million bail for 170 people is ludicrous on its face," said former Galveston County Assistant District Attorney Michael Haskell said.

Under our legal system it doesn't matter how good or bad they are. They either committed a crime and there is evidence that will convict them in a court of law or there isn't.

He's also now a defense attorney, you would expect him to say that.

So being a defense attorney makes him a liar and extinguishes any credibility he had from being a DA? His experience either tells him it's ludicrous or it doesn't. Are you saying his experience is otherwise and he's lying because he's a defense attorney? If you're not saying he's lying about his experience then I don't see the point of your remark. I haven't been a DA or a defense attorney and I agree with his remark. So to you, the remark is only credible if it comes from a sitting prosecutor? If so then you're essentially making an argument from authority...a logical fallacy.

How are the groups not associated? They were there to conspire to commit criminal activity. They are voluntarily part of the same group or club, as evidenced by the vests. They knew the potential for violence - if they didn't they are too dumb to be operating a motor vehicle. Violence occurred, resulting in the murder of several individuals. Therefore, all are part of a group and responsible for the deaths.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

You tell me. You said you don't believe all will be charged or convicted. If you believe what you just said above how can that be? If it's a straight forward as you suggest then all should not only be charged with murder, a conviction should be a slam dunk, so why won't they all be charged and convicted?

The nested quotes thing is killing me...couldn't make it work right, so my other responses above are in red.

[Winchster]

A lot of the "weapons" include such items as pocket knives and even a Swiss army knife. I guess it's a good thing they didn't fight in the kitchen or the weapons count would be more like 2-4000.

[cb1000rider]

Yea, my thoughts too. They're probably counting weapons the same way the TSA does.

[VMI77]

A lot of the "weapons" include such items as pocket knives and even a Swiss army knife. I guess it's a good thing they didn't fight in the kitchen or the weapons count would be more like 2-4000.

Swiss ARMY knife. That's a weapon of war then, an item suitable for the battlefield not the streets of America. And those don't just have blades either...those are high capacity assault pocket knives.

[KD5NRH]

How 'bout we issue every DPS trooper a vest. Top rocker, 'DPS'. Main patch, the state seal. Bottom rocker? Of course, TEXAS.

Have you seen some of the troopers out there? We'd have to decimate the cattle population to get that much leather. General order 3 is apparently just a suggestion.