Shooting at Twin Peaks in Waco

[C-dub]

Looks like they will permanently close this location.

http://www.kxxv.com/story/29092329/corp ... f-shooting" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Texsquatch]

Have we got to the part where this was all cooked up by anti's in order to get tougher gun laws, confiscation, and kill open carry?

[VMI77]

I get it that they have no human values and will happily wreck as many lives as it takes to run a profitable drug trade, but I wonder if they have considered the opportunity a gang war presents to our enemies. Their willingness for rash and animalistic violence leaves them vulnerable to manipulation, and that might represent an opportunity for much more disciplined evil to wage remote control mayhem.

If a drug dealer holds someone down and injects them with drugs against their will he may be ruining their lives. If he kills an innocent he's ruining lives. If he kills another drug dealer then both parties to the act have made a choice they knew had that potential consequence, so they ruined their own lives. If someone buys drugs and becomes a drug addict, that someone ruined their own life. If he also damaged or ruined the lives of others around him, HE did the ruining, not the drug dealer.

All of the collateral ruin in the sale and consumption of drugs is either a product of drugs being illegal or the actions of the drug user. If not for the government and the law selling drugs would not inflict any more collateral damage than selling alcohol. The liquor store owner isn't inflicting any collateral damage. Plenty of people consume alcohol without destroying their own lives of the lives of those around them. It's the drunk that is responsible for the destruction and no one else, and in the case of drugs, the responsibility falls on the addict.

[VMI77]

Have we got to the part where this was all cooked up by anti's in order to get tougher gun laws, confiscation, and kill open carry?

They're certainly going to exploit the incident to advance their narrative.

[VMI77]

They're spittin' in the wind on this one.

[screaminz2002]

Most of the time I dont feel the need to post here which is why I read and seldom post. I feel strongly enough that there is a lot wrong with everything that is being reported on this issue and am slightly confused at the overall sentiment on this forum. What I do know is I am a law abiding citizen, a patriot, and I served my country proudly and honorably. I own several motorcycles yet have no club affiliations. I am also a ccl holder and I carry regularly no matter my mode of transportation. I support most vet causes and charities, anything having to do with helping kids, and issues related to motorcycles. I am a member of HOG and the AMA. I consider myself a conservative and libertarian which until this point thought fit with the overall views here. Now I am not so sure. It seems everyone is very quick to pass judgement on 180 people because they road motorcycles. I am actually appalled that so many in this group hasnt really said anything about all the wrongs here. I would like to look at some issues I have. Probably wont respond to direct rebuttals but I will read whats posted.

This, by all accounts, was a TXCOCI meeting or Texas Confederation of Clubs and Independents meeting. The main purpose of these meetings is to look at motorcycle laws related to Texas, go over biker rights issues, and to promote safer motorcycling for all. They just recently got the state to release a large amount of funds they were withholding to promote motorcycle awareness. They even marched on the capital. A large majority of the clubs (yes clubs not organized gangs) were there for this reason. This is a tragedy but not only for the lives lost but the liberty that is being trampled over here.. Over hundred INNOCENT people that were arrested under Title 11, Section 71.02 for organized crime.
This is just one report on the incident. Everyone you read is different.
http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/Waco ... 43711.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eighteen uniformed Waco police officers including an assistant chief, sergeants and one rookie were standing by outside the restaurant Sunday and responded within a matter of seconds after the violence broke out between members of five rival gangs, Swanton said.
Three of the dead were found in the parking lot just outside of the restaurant, four were found in front of the building and one had been dragged behind a neighboring restaurant, Swanton said. All nine were members of two of the five gangs involved in the melee, he said.

Apparently everyone on a bike was classified as in a gang so its hard to tell who was shot. What I think it should say is all 9 were bikers because we know that for sure. So it looks like 2 separate groups of people in two different fights? It doesnt really say anywhere who had guns. Did 9 people have guns? How many people had a gun out of the 9 that were shot? Who shot them? lots of unknowns here. Last I checked there are video cameras at Twin Peaks. No one on a cell phone had video? Seems odd nothing is circulating. Wonder where all the video is?

About 50 weapons were recovered at the shooting scene including guns, knives and a chain with a padlock that could be used to beat someone, police said Monday.[/i

] This doesn't say how many were legal, how many might be ccl, or that a chain with a lock is a terrific way to lock up something that can be stolen by carrying it off. I had one on my old bike I locked up to a pole at work.. Old Harleys had a loop on the forks just for this before all the electronic gizmos came out. Was this a total count of everyone in the restaurant? What else was considered a weapon? I dont see a list yet..

Patrol officers have arrested a few bikers in the area, he said, and report that they are seeing fewer bikers Tuesday.

So they arrested people in the area because they were on motorcycles? Seems legit.. Apparently they saw fewer bikes in the area today.. Go figure?

McNamara said his staff is capable of handling the influx and there is ample room to keep them all until their court dates begin to be set.

So everyone on this forum is good with every person there being arrested and arraigned on organized crime charges? Will the next time this happens be a gun show? Could you be there? Maybe a good old open carry rally because thats such a popular cause. End of the day they arrested everyone there.
[

i]"We've had to make sure (the inmates) are separated by gang," McNarama said.

Every person on a motorcycle was now in a gang. Sounds like freedom and liberty to me.

On Monday, however, Swanton said the restaurant’s owners were not cooperative with police.
“They have some answering not only to do to you, but to our community as well,” he told reporters.

Yes so the police wanted to restrict the right of these individuals to assemble based on a fight at another event from two weeks ago. The comments in the reports are pick and choose over two weeks. Sorry saying every person on a bike is a violent criminal is like saying every gun owner is a criminal.

The statement said the restaurant has hosted seven Bike Nights since last fall “without altercations such as this.”

Except this wasnt a bike night which is typically a local event. It was a hosted event by an organization.

Snipers were positioned on the restaurant’s roof and on overpasses that overlook the crime scene to protect not only investigators, but also the media gathered to cover the shooting

I mean what did they think was going to happen.. A few hundred bikes come sneaking up on the crime scene and open fire? Sensationalized by the police..

I can't believe on this forum there isnt more people posting that there is a lot of misleading information. So much of this doesnt make sense. How do the 18 injured others play into this and who injured them? If everything gun related started outside with 22 officers standing there, what escalated things and how did it happen? Seems pretty unlikely you pull a gun with 22 officers standing right there. Why would officers expect retaliation from gang members shooting other gang members and stopping them from shooting others?? Here is another report from a biker friendly site: http://www.agingrebel.com/12873" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The shove in the bathroom became a scuffle in the restaurant. When about 30 Bandidos, Cossacks, Scimitars and other bikers spilled into the parking between the Twin peaks and the Don Carlos Mexican restaurant next door, the police were waiting for them. The scuffle became a knife fight and several men were stabbed. When one of the combatants produced a gun the Swat team opened fire with automatic weapons. Multiple sources have told The Aging Rebel that all of the dead were killed by police.

This actually makes more sense then anything I have read but once again who knows? Honestly seems like a Saturday night on 6th street that went badly wrong due to the number of leos standing by waiting on something to happen. I can see more bikers heading to Waco to protest. They arrested every single person on a bike? Lots of content here to nibble at the bits. Feel free to flame it, I have thick skin.

[mojo84]

<I need popcorn for this show>

[cb1000rider]

They're certainly going to exploit the incident to advance their narrative.

It's already advancing the narrative. I'm hearing feedback from various LEOs in leadership positions indicating that open carry would have made this situation a lot more "confusing" for the police...

Interesting situation - last I heard everyone arrested was held on 1M / bail/bond (dunno which) - that's EACH. Sounds like "we don't know who did what" but we'll round up everyone until we sort it out...

[BigGuy]

[VMI77]

Most of the time I dont feel the need to post here which is why I read and seldom post. I feel strongly enough that there is a lot wrong with everything that is being reported on this issue and am slightly confused at the overall sentiment on this forum. What I do know is I am a law abiding citizen, a patriot, and I served my country proudly and honorably. I own several motorcycles yet have no club affiliations. I am also a ccl holder and I carry regularly no matter my mode of transportation. I support most vet causes and charities, anything having to do with helping kids, and issues related to motorcycles. I am a member of HOG and the AMA. I consider myself a conservative and libertarian which until this point thought fit with the overall views here. Now I am not so sure. It seems everyone is very quick to pass judgement on 180 people because they road motorcycles. I am actually appalled that so many in this group hasnt really said anything about all the wrongs here. I would like to look at some issues I have. Probably wont respond to direct rebuttals but I will read whats posted.

This, by all accounts, was a TXCOCI meeting or Texas Confederation of Clubs and Independents meeting. The main purpose of these meetings is to look at motorcycle laws related to Texas, go over biker rights issues, and to promote safer motorcycling for all. They just recently got the state to release a large amount of funds they were withholding to promote motorcycle awareness. They even marched on the capital. A large majority of the clubs (yes clubs not organized gangs) were there for this reason. This is a tragedy but not only for the lives lost but the liberty that is being trampled over here.. Over hundred INNOCENT people that were arrested under Title 11, Section 71.02 for organized crime.
This is just one report on the incident. Everyone you read is different.
http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/Waco ... 43711.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eighteen uniformed Waco police officers including an assistant chief, sergeants and one rookie were standing by outside the restaurant Sunday and responded within a matter of seconds after the violence broke out between members of five rival gangs, Swanton said.
Three of the dead were found in the parking lot just outside of the restaurant, four were found in front of the building and one had been dragged behind a neighboring restaurant, Swanton said. All nine were members of two of the five gangs involved in the melee, he said.

Apparently everyone on a bike was classified as in a gang so its hard to tell who was shot. What I think it should say is all 9 were bikers because we know that for sure. So it looks like 2 separate groups of people in two different fights? It doesnt really say anywhere who had guns. Did 9 people have guns? How many people had a gun out of the 9 that were shot? Who shot them? lots of unknowns here. Last I checked there are video cameras at Twin Peaks. No one on a cell phone had video? Seems odd nothing is circulating. Wonder where all the video is?

About 50 weapons were recovered at the shooting scene including guns, knives and a chain with a padlock that could be used to beat someone, police said Monday.[/i

] This doesn't say how many were legal, how many might be ccl, or that a chain with a lock is a terrific way to lock up something that can be stolen by carrying it off. I had one on my old bike I locked up to a pole at work.. Old Harleys had a loop on the forks just for this before all the electronic gizmos came out. Was this a total count of everyone in the restaurant? What else was considered a weapon? I dont see a list yet..

Patrol officers have arrested a few bikers in the area, he said, and report that they are seeing fewer bikers Tuesday.

So they arrested people in the area because they were on motorcycles? Seems legit.. Apparently they saw fewer bikes in the area today.. Go figure?

McNamara said his staff is capable of handling the influx and there is ample room to keep them all until their court dates begin to be set.

So everyone on this forum is good with every person there being arrested and arraigned on organized crime charges? Will the next time this happens be a gun show? Could you be there? Maybe a good old open carry rally because thats such a popular cause. End of the day they arrested everyone there.
[

i]"We've had to make sure (the inmates) are separated by gang," McNarama said.

Every person on a motorcycle was now in a gang. Sounds like freedom and liberty to me.

On Monday, however, Swanton said the restaurant’s owners were not cooperative with police.
“They have some answering not only to do to you, but to our community as well,” he told reporters.

Yes so the police wanted to restrict the right of these individuals to assemble based on a fight at another event from two weeks ago. The comments in the reports are pick and choose over two weeks. Sorry saying every person on a bike is a violent criminal is like saying every gun owner is a criminal.

The statement said the restaurant has hosted seven Bike Nights since last fall “without altercations such as this.”

Except this wasnt a bike night which is typically a local event. It was a hosted event by an organization.

Snipers were positioned on the restaurant’s roof and on overpasses that overlook the crime scene to protect not only investigators, but also the media gathered to cover the shooting

I mean what did they think was going to happen.. A few hundred bikes come sneaking up on the crime scene and open fire? Sensationalized by the police..

I can't believe on this forum there isnt more people posting that there is a lot of misleading information. So much of this doesnt make sense. How do the 18 injured others play into this and who injured them? If everything gun related started outside with 22 officers standing there, what escalated things and how did it happen? Seems pretty unlikely you pull a gun with 22 officers standing right there. Why would officers expect retaliation from gang members shooting other gang members and stopping them from shooting others?? Here is another report from a biker friendly site: http://www.agingrebel.com/12873" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The shove in the bathroom became a scuffle in the restaurant. When about 30 Bandidos, Cossacks, Scimitars and other bikers spilled into the parking between the Twin peaks and the Don Carlos Mexican restaurant next door, the police were waiting for them. The scuffle became a knife fight and several men were stabbed. When one of the combatants produced a gun the Swat team opened fire with automatic weapons. Multiple sources have told The Aging Rebel that all of the dead were killed by police.

This actually makes more sense then anything I have read but once again who knows? Honestly seems like a Saturday night on 6th street that went badly wrong due to the number of leos standing by waiting on something to happen. I can see more bikers heading to Waco to protest. They arrested every single person on a bike? Lots of content here to nibble at the bits. Feel free to flame it, I have thick skin.

I also don't believe the "news" accounts because the narrative is contradictory and doesn't make sense. There was a thread awhile back with a video of a family living in a Walmart parking lot who got in a brawl with police....not supposedly tough bikers and not even all men...and the police were struggling to maintain control. Bystanders helped prevent a disaster. The odds were roughly one on one. If I remember correctly everyone involved was injured. Yet here 22 officers easily contain and arrest 192 tough bikers who are supposedly willing to kill the police in cold blood, yet no officers or bystanders are injured? In the videos no one appears to be resisting arrest. It looks like some are checking their iphones. No one appears to even be particularly upset. And in media speak 50 weapons "including guns" means one or few guns.

To me it sounds like the MSM is playing up an anti-gun narrative and attempting to exaggerate everything about the incident to make it sound more ominous. No official report yet of who shot who. It appears to me that some small contingent of those present were actually involved and were quickly put down. But that doesn't sell as many papers or generate as many mouse clicks or promote the anti-gun agenda. Time will reveal the actual magnitude of events. I suspect most of those 192 arrested will end up having their charges dropped and we won't hear much about it in the media.

[VMI77]

They're certainly going to exploit the incident to advance their narrative.

It's already advancing the narrative. I'm hearing feedback from various LEOs in leadership positions indicating that open carry would have made this situation a lot more "confusing" for the police...

Interesting situation - last I heard everyone arrested was held on 1M / bail/bond (dunno which) - that's EACH. Sounds like "we don't know who did what" but we'll round up everyone until we sort it out...

LEO leadership is usually anti-gun. You don't get into leadership positions in big departments and stay there, especially in big cities, if you're publicly pro-gun. Also, if you were in such a position and pro-gun the MSM isn't going to give you any air time unless you're an idiot and will look like one or they have set you up to look like one. The chances of the MSM giving air time to any pro-gun LEO in a leadership position are zero. The MSM never gives air time to anyone that might articulately contradict the prevailing political narrative. You ever see David Stockman, Noam Chomsky, Ralph Nader, Paul Craig Roberts, Gore Vidal, John Pilger, Karl Denninger, Nat Hentoff, Patrick Cockburn....or any other logical and articulate person, right or left of the political spectrum.....getting air time in the MSM? The range of opinion and discourse and opinion allowed is very narrow and always within the boundaries prescribed by the gatekeepers for the status-quo.

[joe817]

If anyone thinks the Bandidos are a friendly social club, made up of friendly motorcycling enthusiasts, take a look at this:

"(U)Tier 2: Bandidos Outlaw Motorcycle Gang(U)Formed in the 1960s, the BandidosOutlaw Motorcycle Gang(BandidosOMG)
conducts its illegal activities as covertly as possible and avoids high - profile activities such as drive-by shootings that
many street gangs tend to commit. However, members are not covert about making their presence known by wearing the gang colors, insignia,and riding in large groups. They seek to turn public sentiment in their favor by organizing frequent charity runs. Bandidos are likely to focus on recruiting new members with no criminal history."

Other tier 2 groups include: "Latin Kings, Mara Salvatrucha(MS13), Bloods, Aryan Brotherhood of Texas, Crips, Bandidos, Surenos, Partido Revolucionario Mexicano, Texas Chicano Brotherhood."

http://dps.texas.gov/director_staff/med ... ssment.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yeah, they are in good company.

[fickman]

I just caught up with the thread and will quick hit a few unrelated topics that have been brought up:

The only place I've seen CHL mentioned was an interview with an anonymous informant who said several clubs have encouraged non-felons to get CHLs so that they can carry without being harassed. A documentary I saw years ago said that there are cases where a legal carrier might carry multiple firearms so that he can distribute them to the felons in an emergency. All is believable, it's a pretty obvious tactical solution to an outsider. The other was an undercover LEO asking for the CHL law to be updated to prevent felons and members of known gangs from carrying. I get the logic, but that's a slippery slope akin to the no-fly list.

For the most part, I've been interested to see the "gun" narrative not be the headline - the MSM and mass public seem more captivated by the novelty of a real biker gang war.

My thought on the local Twin Peaks manager is that Sunday lunch is probably a slow time for most chains of this ilk. Having a restaurant full of - not just customers - but drinkers, had to be alluring. I'll vote greed and nothing more unless something else comes out about him personally.

The names and cities of residence for the dead have been released:
http://www.wfaa.com/story/news/local/te ... /27550299/

This site has a little more personal info on several of the dead from social media:
http://heavy.com/news/2015/05/matthew-m ... scimitars/

I won't be surprised if several get reduced charges and lowered bond. The fact that they're still only halfway through the booking process shows what an administrative nightmare this whole thing is. They have to default to everybody being charged with the whole kit-and-caboodle while they sort everything out. I like the precedent of throwing the big book at everybody, at least to start.

I'm curious to know what kind of surveillance video might be forthcoming, along with cell phone video and possibly police body cameras footage (if available).

I also think the spokesman for Waco PD has done a phenomenal job and will likely get several offers for new opportunities.

[C-dub]

I just caught up with the thread and will quick hit a few unrelated topics that have been brought up:

The only place I've seen CHL mentioned was an interview with an anonymous informant who said several clubs have encouraged non-felons to get CHLs so that they can carry without being harassed. A documentary I saw years ago said that there are cases where a legal carrier might carry multiple firearms so that he can distribute them to the felons in an emergency. All is believable, it's a pretty obvious tactical solution to an outsider. The other was an undercover LEO asking for the CHL law to be updated to prevent felons and members of known gangs from carrying. I get the logic, but that's a slippery slope akin to the no-fly list.

The law doesn't have to be changed. It is already illegal for gang members to carry a firearm.

PC §46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an
offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his
or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1) on the person’s own premises or premises under the person’s control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned
by the person or under the person’s control.
(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or
recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or
watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person’s control at any time in
which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a
violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang,