HB910 on House Calendar for 3rd Reading

[v7a]

STAR-TELEGRAM:

Alice Tripp of the Texas State Rifle Association said that she likes the “intent” of the amendment but that the wording needs a look.

[ScooterSissy]

Assuming the amendment stands, what legal remedy do you have if a cop DOES stop you and demands your CHL/ID with no probable cause? I would probably cooperate just to avoid a mess, but afterwards, are there any steps that could be taken?

This. The only problem with the amendment - no teeth.
Just like how unenforceable signs being posted by cities - previously no punishment listed if the law is broken, so municipalities posted without repercussion.

I suspect the first time some DA finds a real crime thrown out because the initial stop was initiated because of OC but had no real reason for being stopped, thus the whole search was thrown out; it will suddenly find some teeth.

[G.A. Heath]

Assuming the amendment stands, what legal remedy do you have if a cop DOES stop you and demands your CHL/ID with no probable cause? I would probably cooperate just to avoid a mess, but afterwards, are there any steps that could be taken?

This. The only problem with the amendment - no teeth.
Just like how unenforceable signs being posted by cities - previously no punishment listed if the law is broken, so municipalities posted without repercussion.

I suspect the first time some DA finds a real crime thrown out because the initial stop was initiated because of OC but had no real reason for being stopped, thus the whole search was thrown out; it will suddenly find some teeth.

What are the odds that some real crime will be thrown out? CHLs, soon HLs??, are one of the most (if not the most) law abiding segment of the population we have documentation for.

[Wes]

I don't think he is necessarily saying a chl holder. Any crime that is discovered because a person was stopped for open carrying, even open carrying itself, could be tossed out because the cop did not have cause to stop the person. CHL aside. Imagine a murder suspect who was picked up just for properly openly carrying and the arrest and murder weapon is tossed out in court because the evidence was illegally obtained. Thus a murderer might go free. DA most certainly won't be happy. Now, I'm no lawyer but I beleive this to be what he is saying, and honestly it makes sense to me.

[Papa_Tiger]

I don't think he is necessarily saying a chl holder. Any crime that is discovered because a person was stopped for open carrying, even open carrying itself, could be tossed out because the cop did not have cause to stop the person. CHL aside. Imagine a murder suspect who was picked up just for properly openly carrying and the arrest and murder weapon is tossed out in court because the evidence was illegally obtained. Thus a murderer might go free. DA most certainly won't be happy. Now, I'm no lawyer but I beleive this to be what he is saying, and honestly it makes sense to me.

If it is a murder suspect, they already have probable cause to stop you - you match the description of a person of interest.

The ONLY thing this amendment does is prevent harassment by the police of people open carrying a handgun. If you are stopped and asked to identify, they will need to have probable cause other than the fact that you are carrying a handgun openly. If they state they have probable cause, regardless of how flimsy it seems, record the encounter, comply after notifying them of the law and go about your business. It will be sorted out VERY quickly if you do have a CHL and aren't confrontational. If you feel your rights have been violated, speak with the appropriate department, file an FOIA request for the stop including any 911 calls pertaining to it and build a case that it was unjustified. When you have a solid case, take the officer and the department to court.

Frankly I don't think it will be a big deal. Open carry will require some amount of education of the public as well as training of the 911 dispatchers to ask questions and calm down panicked hoplophobes, but I anticipate it will be worked out relatively quickly. It may take a bit more time in urban areas with populations over 1,000,000 uh, I mean 750,000 no wait, 175,000.

[TexasCajun]

I don't think he is necessarily saying a chl holder. Any crime that is discovered because a person was stopped for open carrying, even open carrying itself, could be tossed out because the cop did not have cause to stop the person. CHL aside. Imagine a murder suspect who was picked up just for properly openly carrying and the arrest and murder weapon is tossed out in court because the evidence was illegally obtained. Thus a murderer might go free. DA most certainly won't be happy. Now, I'm no lawyer but I beleive this to be what he is saying, and honestly it makes sense to me.

If it is a murder suspect, they already have probable cause to stop you - you match the description of a person of interest.

The ONLY thing this amendment does is prevent harassment by the police of people open carrying a handgun. If you are stopped and asked to identify, they will need to have probable cause other than the fact that you are carrying a handgun openly. If they state they have probable cause, regardless of how flimsy it seems, record the encounter, comply after notifying them of the law and go about your business. It will be sorted out VERY quickly if you do have a CHL and aren't confrontational. If you feel your rights have been violated, speak with the appropriate department, file an FOIA request for the stop including any 911 calls pertaining to it and build a case that it was unjustified. When you have a solid case, take the officer and the department to court.

Frankly I don't think it will be a big deal. Open carry will require some amount of education of the public as well as training of the 911 dispatchers to ask questions and calm down panicked hoplophobes, but I anticipate it will be worked out relatively quickly. It may take a bit more time in urban areas with populations over 1,000,000 uh, I mean 750,000 no wait, 175,000.

This will most likely be what bears out. I can't imagine even a very over zealous officer going on OC hunts for very long if they end up resulting in nothing. The only wildcard to this theory is that if LEOs end up nabbing a few unlicensed OCs in the process, it will extend the hunting expedition period a bit longer.

[Salty1]

If I was stopped for OC'ing I would be very respectful to the officer and not have an attitude towards them and show them the requested identification then go on my way. The best thing we could do if faced with that situation is to be a good ambassador for the entire CHL program. I believe that most officers if treated respectfully will change their behavior after a few positive encounters.

IMO to get respect we have to show respect in a professional manor, remember this is going to be new for all of the LEO's out there as well. There will be a learning curve for the LEO's to become comfortable with the fact that guns are being carried openly which conflicts with their previous training.

[AJSully421]

The main reason I would not OC around town, besides someone cracking me over the head and taking my pistol, is there were some MDA ninnies who posted in various forums and sites that if they ever saw someone OCing (either long guns or handguns) that they would call 911 and make a false statement that you were waving the gun around because they wanted to use the police to harass you.

So, there you are in the local grocery store, OCing, buying whatever, not hurting anyone, and here comes a cop down the aisle who is responding to a report that you had your gun out and were waving it around. He approaches you in "full command mode" and you stand there absolutely stunned about how Officer Friendly is acting towards you for no reason that you are aware of, and you are taken back and extremely confused as he is barking orders at you. Firmly ensconced in your stupor, you do not act as quickly as the responding officer would like for you to. How do you think this ends? Best chance, you are disarmed and maybe cuffed while they review security video, see you were in the right, and later they track down that MDA hag and arrest her. Worst case... Failure to comply, resisting arrest, in an extreme case, you are shot and killed.

I live in a small town of 21,000 on the edge of Fort Worth, and I am 100% sure that there is at least one of these rabid soccer moms in my small town that would be irate if I OCed to the local Walmart. I could easily see how one of them could get all uppity about you carrying a lethal weapon around their precious offspring and will call 911 and demand that an officer come and make you stop it. They will be asked by dispatch if you are doing anything more than walking around with a holstered handgun, and when the truth does not get them the instant gratification that they desire, it will be very easy for them to lie and say that you had it out of the holster to get the result that they want. Now you are in for an interesting experience.

Maybe it will take a legal OCer being killed based off of a false report and the ninny MDA woman being charged with something like Criminally Negligent Homicide (A stretch by any measure) to get the word out to not try this.

But I can promise you that an irate woman who thinks she is protecting her kids can easily justify in her mind telling a little lie to get you to stop bringing that evil baby killer with you in public.

To me, not worth it. I will OC out at the ranch, certainly to pump gas on the way back to town, maybe in to a fast food joint in Stephenville on the way back, and maybe to my neighborhood park, but that is really it.

[RHenriksen]

If it is a murder suspect, they already have probable cause to stop you - you match the description of a person of interest.

The ONLY thing this amendment does is prevent harassment by the police of people open carrying a handgun. If you are stopped and asked to identify, they will need to have probable cause other than the fact that you are carrying a handgun openly. If they state they have probable cause, regardless of how flimsy it seems, record the encounter, comply after notifying them of the law and go about your business. It will be sorted out VERY quickly if you do have a CHL and aren't confrontational. If you feel your rights have been violated, speak with the appropriate department, file an FOIA request for the stop including any 911 calls pertaining to it and build a case that it was unjustified. When you have a solid case, take the officer and the department to court.

Frankly I don't think it will be a big deal. Open carry will require some amount of education of the public as well as training of the 911 dispatchers to ask questions and calm down panicked hoplophobes, but I anticipate it will be worked out relatively quickly. It may take a bit more time in urban areas with populations over 1,000,000 uh, I mean 750,000 no wait, 175,000.

This will most likely be what bears out. I can't imagine even a very over zealous officer going on OC hunts for very long if they end up resulting in nothing. The only wildcard to this theory is that if LEOs end up nabbing a few unlicensed OCs in the process, it will extend the hunting expedition period a bit longer.

The other angle here is the agenda of the police chief. If they want to build a case for their bosses for pushing back against the OC law, they will keep beating the drum of how much MWAG calls eat up department resources - and always rolling a cruiser every time a call comes in, no matter how benign the circumstances. Then tell the residents of their community (and the legislature) that the reason service is declining is that the PD is too busy answering MWAG calls to take care of assaults, rapes, murders, etc.

[AJSully421]

If it is a murder suspect, they already have probable cause to stop you - you match the description of a person of interest.

The ONLY thing this amendment does is prevent harassment by the police of people open carrying a handgun. If you are stopped and asked to identify, they will need to have probable cause other than the fact that you are carrying a handgun openly. If they state they have probable cause, regardless of how flimsy it seems, record the encounter, comply after notifying them of the law and go about your business. It will be sorted out VERY quickly if you do have a CHL and aren't confrontational. If you feel your rights have been violated, speak with the appropriate department, file an FOIA request for the stop including any 911 calls pertaining to it and build a case that it was unjustified. When you have a solid case, take the officer and the department to court.

Frankly I don't think it will be a big deal. Open carry will require some amount of education of the public as well as training of the 911 dispatchers to ask questions and calm down panicked hoplophobes, but I anticipate it will be worked out relatively quickly. It may take a bit more time in urban areas with populations over 1,000,000 uh, I mean 750,000 no wait, 175,000.

This will most likely be what bears out. I can't imagine even a very over zealous officer going on OC hunts for very long if they end up resulting in nothing. The only wildcard to this theory is that if LEOs end up nabbing a few unlicensed OCs in the process, it will extend the hunting expedition period a bit longer.

The other angle here is the agenda of the police chief. If they want to build a case for their bosses for pushing back against the OC law, they will keep beating the drum of how much MWAG calls eat up department resources - and always rolling a cruiser every time a call comes in, no matter how benign the circumstances. Then tell the residents of their community (and the legislature) that the reason service is declining is that the PD is too busy answering MWAG calls to take care of assaults, rapes, murders, etc.

I can certainly see this being the case.

[TVGuy]

The main reason I would not OC around town, besides someone cracking me over the head and taking my pistol, is there were some MDA ninnies who posted in various forums and sites that if they ever saw someone OCing (either long guns or handguns) that they would call 911 and make a false statement that you were waving the gun around because they wanted to use the police to harass you.

So, there you are in the local grocery store, OCing, buying whatever, not hurting anyone, and here comes a cop down the aisle who is responding to a report that you had your gun out and were waving it around. He approaches you in "full command mode" and you stand there absolutely stunned about how Officer Friendly is acting towards you for no reason that you are aware of, and you are taken back and extremely confused as he is barking orders at you. Firmly ensconced in your stupor, you do not act as quickly as the responding officer would like for you to. How do you think this ends? Best chance, you are disarmed and maybe cuffed while they review security video, see you were in the right, and later they track down that MDA hag and arrest her. Worst case... Failure to comply, resisting arrest, in an extreme case, you are shot and killed.

I live in a small town of 21,000 on the edge of Fort Worth, and I am 100% sure that there is at least one of these rabid soccer moms in my small town that would be irate if I OCed to the local Walmart. I could easily see how one of them could get all uppity about you carrying a lethal weapon around their precious offspring and will call 911 and demand that an officer come and make you stop it. They will be asked by dispatch if you are doing anything more than walking around with a holstered handgun, and when the truth does not get them the instant gratification that they desire, it will be very easy for them to lie and say that you had it out of the holster to get the result that they want. Now you are in for an interesting experience.

Maybe it will take a legal OCer being killed based off of a false report and the ninny MDA woman being charged with something like Criminally Negligent Homicide (A stretch by any measure) to get the word out to not try this.

But I can promise you that an irate woman who thinks she is protecting her kids can easily justify in her mind telling a little lie to get you to stop bringing that evil baby killer with you in public.

To me, not worth it. I will OC out at the ranch, certainly to pump gas on the way back to town, maybe in to a fast food joint in Stephenville on the way back, and maybe to my neighborhood park, but that is really it.

While I agree that any outcome is possible, I believe anything other than a normal police encounter and serious charges against the caller would be unlikely.

[TexasCajun]

If it is a murder suspect, they already have probable cause to stop you - you match the description of a person of interest.

The ONLY thing this amendment does is prevent harassment by the police of people open carrying a handgun. If you are stopped and asked to identify, they will need to have probable cause other than the fact that you are carrying a handgun openly. If they state they have probable cause, regardless of how flimsy it seems, record the encounter, comply after notifying them of the law and go about your business. It will be sorted out VERY quickly if you do have a CHL and aren't confrontational. If you feel your rights have been violated, speak with the appropriate department, file an FOIA request for the stop including any 911 calls pertaining to it and build a case that it was unjustified. When you have a solid case, take the officer and the department to court.

Frankly I don't think it will be a big deal. Open carry will require some amount of education of the public as well as training of the 911 dispatchers to ask questions and calm down panicked hoplophobes, but I anticipate it will be worked out relatively quickly. It may take a bit more time in urban areas with populations over 1,000,000 uh, I mean 750,000 no wait, 175,000.

This will most likely be what bears out. I can't imagine even a very over zealous officer going on OC hunts for very long if they end up resulting in nothing. The only wildcard to this theory is that if LEOs end up nabbing a few unlicensed OCs in the process, it will extend the hunting expedition period a bit longer.

The other angle here is the agenda of the police chief. If they want to build a case for their bosses for pushing back against the OC law, they will keep beating the drum of how much MWAG calls eat up department resources - and always rolling a cruiser every time a call comes in, no matter how benign the circumstances. Then tell the residents of their community (and the legislature) that the reason service is declining is that the PD is too busy answering MWAG calls to take care of assaults, rapes, murders, etc.

Initially? Maybe. But such a sustained subterfuge could only go for so long before some level of scrutiny starts to cause finger-pointing and back-biting. These guys thrive on public opinion and good PR. It wouldn't take much for someone to look into the outcomes of all of these MWAG calls, especially if they are being cited as the reason that service is declining. If the calls are resulting in non-action (which we believe would be the case), then the fingers start to point at the training that 911 operators and officers are receiving.

[Wes]

I don't think he is necessarily saying a chl holder. Any crime that is discovered because a person was stopped for open carrying, even open carrying itself, could be tossed out because the cop did not have cause to stop the person. CHL aside. Imagine a murder suspect who was picked up just for properly openly carrying and the arrest and murder weapon is tossed out in court because the evidence was illegally obtained. Thus a murderer might go free. DA most certainly won't be happy. Now, I'm no lawyer but I beleive this to be what he is saying, and honestly it makes sense to me.

If it is a murder suspect, they already have probable cause to stop you - you match the description of a person of interest.

That's why I said "the only reason", if he matched a description of a person of interest then open carrying isn't the only reason.

I'm not saying it will happen, I'm just saying that as described before me was a situation that could. I personally don't think any of it will be an issue. You might hear a few news clips about it in January, but by February I bet we hear nothing.

Just show your ID if asked when you open carry. They aren't trying to harras you and be honest, it does not put you out to comply. I would show, no reason not to. (Enter conspiracy theorist to claim evil will befall me because I showed Id when I didn't have to)

The bill and amendments are Imo just fine. I look forward to it. Do I wish other bills passed instead? Sure. Do I think ultimately we should have unlicensed carry? Sure. I can take this as a win for now though.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Most officers are just like the rest of us. So while we vehemently disagree with their bosses' brand of politics, those that are going to run out and open carry on day 1 should remember that not all departments are a reflection of their political appointee head. I believe that most officers will only go as far as they have to in order to keep their bosses off their backs. Until proven otherwise, we should continue to treat the rank-and-file offers as the good guys.

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

If I was stopped for OC'ing I would be very respectful to the officer and not have an attitude towards them and show them the requested identification then go on my way. The best thing we could do if faced with that situation is to be a good ambassador for the entire CHL program. I believe that most officers if treated respectfully will change their behavior after a few positive encounters.

IMO to get respect we have to show respect in a professional manor, remember this is going to be new for all of the LEO's out there as well. There will be a learning curve for the LEO's to become comfortable with the fact that guns are being carried openly which conflicts with their previous training.

It will be beneficial to all Texas gun owners if Salty1's advice is taken to heart. This is how we make open-carry as successful has concealed-carry has been for 20 years.

Chas.