What's your opinion - NOT calling 911 after a SD shooting

[Nano]

I seem to get the feeling from reading this thread that most people with a CHL have a lawyer on speed dial in case the unthinkable should happen. True, not true? How is the best way to find a lawyer before a self defense shooting takes place?

[E.Marquez]

I did not advocate talking to the investigating officers without a lawyer present

Just that I would be if at all possible the first one to call 911.

911 what is your emergency?"
I need police and an ambulance immediately, I was forced to defend myself...address xxxxxx, there is no armed threat at this time, my name is marquez, caucasian male, blue jeans, orange jacket. There is no armed threat ..the site is secure..please hurry. CLICK...

Next call goes to my lawyer...who I will wait for before speaking to the police other than a polite, self ID'ing stating I was forced to defend myself and respectfully informing I mean no disrespect or to make the investigating any harder than it is, but I am waiting for counsel before making any further statements.

[C-dub]

A very wise man that owns this forum will tell you that when safe to do so, immediately call 911. Advise them 'My name is------. I just had to shoot a man/woman that attacked me with a (gun/knife/etc). Please send an ambulance and police to (the location of the shooting). Don't stay on the phone and answer their questions, just hang up and wait for the police, and don't have your gun out when they arrive.

When the police arrive, give just the basic info of what happened like 'This man came out of nowhere and tried to stab me with a knife. I was in fear for my life so I had to shoot to stop the attack'

I tend to agree, although I've heard many times to NOT say you had to shoot (even in self defense), because in so doing, you're confessing. It's kinda hard to imagine saying anything else, though, with a guy lying dead on the pavement right in front of you.

That's why you say that you HAD to shoot to defend yourself. And all the other stuff.

I do not have a lawyer on speed dial and the only one's I know personally, whose phone numbers I have in my phone, are not criminal defense or 2A lawyers.

[VMI77]

The only way I would consider leaving the scene of a crime is if my safety dictated it or my last name was Kennedy.

That is funny!

I am not a lawyer and don't know much about lawyering so always keep that in mind. Still it seems that if you have to shoot someone, staying on the scene and waiting for the police would be the right thing to do. I can see the wisdom in not giving a statement of any sort without legal representation, but it seems to me that leaving the scene would only muck things up. Maybe if the shooting is questionable, mucking things up is a good tactic, but if you did everything right and it was unavoidable, why cloud the circumstances by leaving?

There is a guy in my industry that I am professionally acquainted with who is not exactly an upstanding citizen and is always mixed up in something he shouldn't be. He is a slim ball in other words who used to be a very heavy drinker and always speeding home from the bars after last call. I only casually know the guy and was told the story by a co-worker I know well who worked closely with him. I was told this incident happened in Florida.
Almost two decades ago this guy hit and killed a pedestrian while driving drunk, and fled the scene. When he got home he called his attorney and told him what happened as there were a lot of witnesses and he figured the cops would track him down fast. His attorney told him to start drinking at the house and that he would call the police. The police showed up and arrested him. Later his attorney argued that this guy was not driving drunk and that he left the scene because he got scared and had a PTSD (or whatever they called it 20 years ago) type experience which cause him to panic and flee home a couple of blocks away. Once he got home, he started drinking to calm his nerves and that is why he had alcohol in his system. There were a lot of other issues (the guy he ran over was homeless and also drunk) but at the end of the day, he ended up with probation and did no jail time. It was very shady and dishonest and sadly, this guy didn't seem to learn a darn thing from the experience except to keep a lawyer on speed dial.

Seems to me that attorney broke the law. Sounds to me like conspiracy to obstruct justice.

[rbwhatever1]

I do not have a lawyer on speed dial and the only one's I know personally, whose phone numbers I have in my phone, are not criminal defense or 2A lawyers.

Me either. I suppose one of them could recommend somebody but that would take time to locate. I hope I never need one.
Maybe a good topic on this forum would be for legitimate, sane, well respected 2A Defense Attorneys by location so we can all have a local superstar in our pockets.

[Pre-paid legal service] is touting 100k Texans...

[Keith B]

I am not a lawyer and don't know much about lawyering so always keep that in mind. Still it seems that if you have to shoot someone, staying on the scene and waiting for the police would be the right thing to do. I can see the wisdom in not giving a statement of any sort without legal representation, but it seems to me that leaving the scene would only muck things up. Maybe if the shooting is questionable, mucking things up is a good tactic, but if you did everything right and it was unavoidable, why cloud the circumstances by leaving?

There is a guy in my industry that I am professionally acquainted with who is not exactly an upstanding citizen and is always mixed up in something he shouldn't be. He is a slim ball in other words who used to be a very heavy drinker and always speeding home from the bars after last call. I only casually know the guy and was told the story by a co-worker I know well who worked closely with him. I was told this incident happened in Florida.
Almost two decades ago this guy hit and killed a pedestrian while driving drunk, and fled the scene. When he got home he called his attorney and told him what happened as there were a lot of witnesses and he figured the cops would track him down fast. His attorney told him to start drinking at the house and that he would call the police. The police showed up and arrested him. Later his attorney argued that this guy was not driving drunk and that he left the scene because he got scared and had a PTSD (or whatever they called it 20 years ago) type experience which cause him to panic and flee home a couple of blocks away. Once he got home, he started drinking to calm his nerves and that is why he had alcohol in his system. There were a lot of other issues (the guy he ran over was homeless and also drunk) but at the end of the day, he ended up with probation and did no jail time. It was very shady and dishonest and sadly, this guy didn't seem to learn a darn thing from the experience except to keep a lawyer on speed dial.

I perosnally know if an incident that is similar.

When I was a reserve officer I came home to find a car stuck on the embankment past the end of the driveway. The driveway at my house was actually a closed street that didn't go all the way across the property to connect with the street behind it.

The neighbor behind me was in her yard and stated she had already called the police. When I asked about the driver, she said he had tried to get the car off the embankment, but had no luck. That was probably due to the fact the rear wheels were about 3 feet off the ground and the nose of the car was on the street behind my house.

I asked where he was, and she pointed to the neighbor's house across the side street. I looked over and saw a guy I knew sitting on the porch. I walked that direction and saw he had a bottle and he picked it up and took a big swig from it. As I got closer I could tell it was a bottle of Jack Daniels. When I got to him I could tell he was intoxicated. I asked him about the accident and he said 'I got so upset that I had crashed my car that I came over to Jeff's house (the neighbor and mutual friend), asked for some Jack and started drinking. Jeff's wife stated that he DID get the booze from them, but would never say if she thought he had been drinking prior to getting the bottle.

Needless to say I knew that he had not drank enough between the time the accident happened and I got there that he was that inebriated, but it sure gave him an alibi to keep him from being charged with DWI.

[Ruark]

I do not have a lawyer on speed dial and the only one's I know personally, whose phone numbers I have in my phone, are not criminal defense or 2A lawyers.

Me either. I suppose one of them could recommend somebody but that would take time to locate. I hope I never need one.
Maybe a good topic on this forum would be for legitimate, sane, well respected 2A Defense Attorneys by location so we can all have a local superstar in our pockets.

[Pre-paid legal service] is touting 100k Texans...

Let's not get into this subject, or Charlie will get upset (shudder)... but CCWSafe seems to be the up and coming service of this type. In any case, when I spoke of "calling your lawyer" above, I was thinking of having one of these coverages.

[o b juan]

In Mexico even in the car wrecks they flee the scene and find Abogado>
Mexicans on this side of the border also do the same frequently its an ethnic (learned) thing.

[jimlongley]

He is a former policeman, Chicago I believe..

That kinda explains it...

Yeah, he can't possibly have any experience with CHLs.

[b322da]

The only way I would consider leaving the scene of a crime is if my safety dictated it or my last name was Kennedy.

That is funny!

I am not a lawyer and don't know much about lawyering so always keep that in mind. Still it seems that if you have to shoot someone, staying on the scene and waiting for the police would be the right thing to do. I can see the wisdom in not giving a statement of any sort without legal representation, but it seems to me that leaving the scene would only muck things up. Maybe if the shooting is questionable, mucking things up is a good tactic, but if you did everything right and it was unavoidable, why cloud the circumstances by leaving?

There is a guy in my industry that I am professionally acquainted with who is not exactly an upstanding citizen and is always mixed up in something he shouldn't be. He is a slim ball in other words who used to be a very heavy drinker and always speeding home from the bars after last call. I only casually know the guy and was told the story by a co-worker I know well who worked closely with him. I was told this incident happened in Florida.
Almost two decades ago this guy hit and killed a pedestrian while driving drunk, and fled the scene. When he got home he called his attorney and told him what happened as there were a lot of witnesses and he figured the cops would track him down fast. His attorney told him to start drinking at the house and that he would call the police. The police showed up and arrested him. Later his attorney argued that this guy was not driving drunk and that he left the scene because he got scared and had a PTSD (or whatever they called it 20 years ago) type experience which cause him to panic and flee home a couple of blocks away. Once he got home, he started drinking to calm his nerves and that is why he had alcohol in his system. There were a lot of other issues (the guy he ran over was homeless and also drunk) but at the end of the day, he ended up with probation and did no jail time. It was very shady and dishonest and sadly, this guy didn't seem to learn a darn thing from the experience except to keep a lawyer on speed dial.

Seems to me that attorney broke the law. Sounds to me like conspiracy to obstruct justice.

Jim

[mr1337]

I did not advocate talking to the investigating officers without a lawyer present

Just that I would be if at all possible the first one to call 911.

911 what is your emergency?"
I need police and an ambulance immediately, I was forced to defend myself...address xxxxxx, there is no armed threat at this time, my name is marquez, caucasian male, blue jeans, orange jacket. There is no armed threat ..the site is secure..please hurry. CLICK...

Next call goes to my lawyer...who I will wait for before speaking to the police other than a polite, self ID'ing stating I was forced to defend myself and respectfully informing I mean no disrespect or to make the investigating any harder than it is, but I am waiting for counsel before making any further statements.

That sounds like a solid plan. Also, point out any evidence or witnesses when the police arrive, so that it doesn't get missed during the investigation. Of course, do so without admitting anything.

After a self defense shooting, you're likely to be pumped up on adrenaline. You need to come down off that before you can even think of testifying, and only after you've spoken to a lawyer. You're literally on the balance between life in prison and having no charges filed if you say something wrong.

[mtnthundr2]

http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-d ... story.html

A former Salisbury Township man shot his Florida neighbor to death Wednesday and took the body to his lawyer's office in a pickup truck, according to published reports in Fort Myers, Fla.

So this guy doesn't call 911 AND loads the body of the guy he shot into his pickup truck and drives to his attorneys office!!

As for me, I'm with E. Marquez :

I did not advocate talking to the investigating officers without a lawyer present

Just that I would be if at all possible the first one to call 911.

911 what is your emergency?"
I need police and an ambulance immediately, I was forced to defend myself...address xxxxxx, there is no armed threat at this time, my name is marquez, caucasian male, blue jeans, orange jacket. There is no armed threat ..the site is secure..please hurry. CLICK...

Next call goes to my lawyer...who I will wait for before speaking to the police other than a polite, self ID'ing stating I was forced to defend myself and respectfully informing I mean no disrespect or to make the investigating any harder than it is, but I am waiting for counsel before making any further statements.

ETA: link to story with more details http://www.news-press.com/story/news/cr ... /24398177/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[b322da]

If you are the shooter, after going through the standard drill mentioned several times above, it is quite likely that once you talk to a lawyer who accepts you as a client he will just tell you to nicely tell the LEOs that you have a lawyer, who he is, and then keep your mouth shut and let him take care of it with law enforcement by himself until he decides otherwise. He may, but may not, advise you to explicitly "take the 5th" if further questioned by LEOs. The fact that you have, at that time, a lawyer, in and of itself, should restrain LEOs from interrogating you, since they would know for sure that if you incriminated yourself following further interrogation they most likely would not be able to use your "admissions" at trial.

By then you have taken two significant steps to restrain that interrogation -- you have advised them that you wish to remain silent, and secondly, that you have a lawyer. The second of those two steps is a strong reinforcement, which would go a long way, probably far enough, in rebutting any effort by an LEO to say that you changed your mind about the 5th and decided to talk. And you may take it from me that persons have talked themselves right into prison after they took the 5th.

Even your lawyer at that moment would know that under the circumstances you were probably confused and couldn't remember for sure what happened if you ever had any idea at all what happened, and he would much prefer for things, and you, to calm down, with time for him to have a nice long private chat with you, even though that chat might have to take place in jail.

As I have said before, though, "different ships, different long splices," and I certainly cannot speak for all lawyers, nor is this legal advice. You need to get that advice from your own lawyer, which I, of course, am not. I offer this simply as speculation about what will be happening when, or if, you succeed in retaining a lawyer using your mobile phone. Try to take it easy and do not panic. Knowing that you have a lawyer working on your behalf should assist you a bunch in calming down.

Jim

[TXBO]

An interesting correlation would be to hear from our LEO friends what their department policy is on giving statements after an officer involved shooting.

Personal LEO friends of mine have told me that their union policy requires that no statement can be made for at least 24 hours. Sounds like solid advice for non-LEO.

[EEllis]

Personally I don't think there is any one response that would be the best in every situation. If you look at the Zimmerman case his speaking to the cops only helped. I can't help but think that if I'm ever involved in a self defence shooting that just telling the cops what happened may be the best choice. A guy I know shot a BG who tried to jack him at a gas station late one night. He killed the guy and called 911. Two hours later after giving a statement he was at home and never had a lawyer involved at all. If someone tries to rob me and I shoot them I would most likely talk to the cops. If I shoot my girlfriend ex who is kicking in my door then I keep my mouth shut and get a lawyer.