Mall security and right to physically detain you

[hillfighter]

Sorry if this has been discussed but my search fu is weak. This scenario came up.

If you're at the mall (or major box retailer). You're leaving (or even just walking) when store/mall security approach you. They are not LEO's.
They make accusations and want to hold you. Can they physically detain you (aka touch your person).

I advised if you are stopped, don't go anywhere but demand a police officer be called (or better yet call one yourself). But what exactly are their rights, especially as you are carrying a firearm and I would not voluntarily give up a firearm to anyone but the wife or police for obvious reasons.

Again sorry if this has been discussed to death.

Almost 200 posts later and nobody has shown they're allowed to assault you if you're not stealing. Nobody has shown that anybody except a LEO has the authority to disarm you. Nobody has shown you lose the right to Stand Your Ground if you're assaulted and the attacker goes for your gun.

I'm not a lawyer so you have to draw your own conclusions.

[Maxwell]

Unless I am mistaken security personnel have the right to perform a citizen's arrest in relation to their job. What I was taught by a lawyer several years ago was at the first confrontation ask "Am I under arrest?" if the answer is no, turn a walk away. If the answer is yes you now have grounds for legal action (assuming you are innocent). To me it is like being asked to leave a business. Just do it and don't argue.

Now, that does not mean they can search me... The Police can when they arrive but the store's personnel cannot in my opinion.

[ScottDLS]

All of this discussion also seems to beg the question of whether you are legally obligated to submit to a shopkeeper detainment or citizens' arrest. If I refused to submit to a LEO arrest I could be charged with resisting arrest, not mention potentially get killed by the LEO. Same true for citizen or shopkeeper?

Seems to me the issue would be how the LP or shopkeeper was going to physically detain me. Are they authorized by law to use force (how much?), or deadly force? May I resist with equal force...? I will! I guess a commissioned security guard could try to club or shoot me...in which I case I would likely use deadly force to prevent such action.

I know a property owner is allowed to use force, even in some cases deadly force, to protect property. But am I allowed to resist (assuming I didn't steal anything). Non-LEO's ought to make darn sure they KNOW you're stealing before they escalate... I just don't see the little old lady at Wally World/Sam's drilling me in the back with a .45 'cause I didn't show the receipt for my 4 gallon jug of peanut butter. On the other hand, if I did a snatch and grab of an AR at the local gun store, I would reasonably expect to have a few extra openings before I made it out the door.

[Cedar Park Dad]

Would it be legal to record using your cell phone the discussion you are having with the Guard or Loss Prevention people. This might come in handy for any on-going investigation/accusation.

If you're in a public place I don't think they have an expectation of privacy. I think it might be a good idea but I'm sure somebody will say you're provoking the LP and escalating the situation. Like the OC guys who use video to keep people honest.

I would pull out a phone and start recording, it seems very prudent.

[Cedar Park Dad]

Sorry if this has been discussed but my search fu is weak. This scenario came up.

If you're at the mall (or major box retailer). You're leaving (or even just walking) when store/mall security approach you. They are not LEO's.
They make accusations and want to hold you. Can they physically detain you (aka touch your person).

I advised if you are stopped, don't go anywhere but demand a police officer be called (or better yet call one yourself). But what exactly are their rights, especially as you are carrying a firearm and I would not voluntarily give up a firearm to anyone but the wife or police for obvious reasons.

Again sorry if this has been discussed to death.

Almost 200 posts later and nobody has shown they're allowed to assault you if you're not stealing. Nobody has shown that anybody except a LEO has the authority to disarm you. Nobody has shown you lose the right to Stand Your Ground if you're assaulted and the attacker goes for your gun.

I'm not a lawyer so you have to draw your own conclusions.

Well I think we've proven they have no right to search you. I think we've proven its prudent to call the police if they try to hold you. Better to let real LEOs handle the situation.

[Cedar Park Dad]

I know a property owner is allowed to use force, even in some cases deadly force, to protect property. But am I allowed to resist (assuming I didn't steal anything). Non-LEO's ought to make darn sure they KNOW you're stealing before they escalate... I just don't see the little old lady at Wally World/Sam's drilling me in the back with a .45 'cause I didn't show the receipt for my 4 gallon jug of peanut butter. On the other hand, if I did a snatch and grab of an AR at the local gun store, I would reasonably expect to have a few extra openings before I made it out the door.

Careful about those little old ladies. My mom was one for awhile. She was a redhead from New Orleans. Even dad knew not to mess with her...

[patterson]

Whats the big deal with complying with LP and showing your receipt if you are innocent or waiting for LEO to show up, I would rather do that than making a big deal out of it and pulling a weapon and or resisting and risk losing my chl

[E.Marquez]

Whats the big deal with complying with LP and showing your receipt if you are innocent or waiting for LEO to show up, I would rather do that than making a big deal out of it and pulling a weapon and or resisting and risk losing my chl

I think .. I think this is much to do about nothing,, as the hypothetical s offered here seem to be so infrequent in reality,they are almost non issues in my research.

That said.. The ONLY issue I can see for myself, is if a LP person were to insist on searching, or "forcing" me out of public view, even though i have complied with there "detainment" ie stopped leaving the store.. and said i would cooperate with police if called to investigate.
I simply will not reveal (confirm) Im carrying to a non LEO, if a LP person mistakes my gun, magazine or anything in my pockets on my person for store property.. I will politely ask them to call police (actually id be calling them myself...following the general rule first caller is the victim) I'll politely wit for police to arrive and explain why I will not let the store employee search me..If in that officers investigation they feel the need to search me, id comply no issue.... Then id be taking it up with company management.

What would i do if a LP person tried to go hands on to search before a LEO arrived or "force" me to a side room out of public site? Well i don't think it will ever happen.. if it does I'd like insist it was not going to happen, I have some learned ability at doing so in a authoritative manner that would likely prevail.

[E.Marquez]

Whats the big deal with complying with LP and showing your receipt if you are innocent or waiting for LEO to show up, I would rather do that than making a big deal out of it and pulling a weapon and or resisting and risk losing my chl

I think .. I think this is much to do about nothing,, as the hypothetical s offered here seem to be so infrequent in reality,they are almost non issues in my research.

That said.. The ONLY issue I can see for myself, is if a LP person were to insist on searching, or "forcing" me out of public view, even though i have complied with there "detainment" ie stopped leaving the store.. and said i would cooperate with police if called to investigate.
I simply will not reveal (confirm) Im carrying to a non LEO, if a LP person mistakes my gun, magazine or anything in my pockets on my person for store property.. I will politely ask them to call police (actually id be calling them myself...following the general rule first caller is the victim) I'll politely wit for police to arrive and explain why I will not let the store employee search me..If in that officers investigation they feel the need to search me, id comply no issue.... Then id be taking it up with company management.

What would i do if a LP person tried to go hands on to search before a LEO arrived or "force" me to a side room out of public site? Well i don't think it will ever happen.. if it does I'd like insist it was not going to happen, I have some learned ability at doing so in a authoritative manner that would likely prevail.

[EEllis]

Sorry if this has been discussed but my search fu is weak. This scenario came up.

If you're at the mall (or major box retailer). You're leaving (or even just walking) when store/mall security approach you. They are not LEO's.
They make accusations and want to hold you. Can they physically detain you (aka touch your person).

I advised if you are stopped, don't go anywhere but demand a police officer be called (or better yet call one yourself). But what exactly are their rights, especially as you are carrying a firearm and I would not voluntarily give up a firearm to anyone but the wife or police for obvious reasons.

Again sorry if this has been discussed to death.

Almost 200 posts later and nobody has shown they're allowed to assault you if you're not stealing. Nobody has shown that anybody except a LEO has the authority to disarm you. Nobody has shown you lose the right to Stand Your Ground if you're assaulted and the attacker goes for your gun.

I'm not a lawyer so you have to draw your own conclusions.

Of course when a merchant must use force to stop someone who they believe is stealing it isn't assault and that has been shown. The idea that that same merchant can handcuff, and again it has been shown that they can do that in the right circumstances, but not disarm you at the same time they cuff someone is just bizarre. Of course they can and a circumstance where a merchant can stop you and you 7th your firearm is just not a stand your ground situation. You are not justified in using force at all never mind deadly force.

[EEllis]

All of this discussion also seems to beg the question of whether you are legally obligated to submit to a shopkeeper detainment or citizens' arrest. If I refused to submit to a LEO arrest I could be charged with resisting arrest, not mention potentially get killed by the LEO. Same true for citizen or shopkeeper?

Seems to me the issue would be how the LP or shopkeeper was going to physically detain me. Are they authorized by law to use force (how much?), or deadly force? May I resist with equal force...? I will! I guess a commissioned security guard could try to club or shoot me...in which I case I would likely use deadly force to prevent such action.

I know a property owner is allowed to use force, even in some cases deadly force, to protect property. But am I allowed to resist (assuming I didn't steal anything). Non-LEO's ought to make darn sure they KNOW you're stealing before they escalate... I just don't see the little old lady at Wally World/Sam's drilling me in the back with a .45 'cause I didn't show the receipt for my 4 gallon jug of peanut butter. On the other hand, if I did a snatch and grab of an AR at the local gun store, I would reasonably expect to have a few extra openings before I made it out the door.

You are not required to comply but you are not justified in using force to resist unless their arrest is without legal justification. That doesn't mean they must be right in the belief someone stole property but just that they comply with the law in that their belief was reasonable. Now this is criminal, civil is totally separate.

[ScottDLS]

All of this discussion also seems to beg the question of whether you are legally obligated to submit to a shopkeeper detainment or citizens' arrest. If I refused to submit to a LEO arrest I could be charged with resisting arrest, not mention potentially get killed by the LEO. Same true for citizen or shopkeeper?

Seems to me the issue would be how the LP or shopkeeper was going to physically detain me. Are they authorized by law to use force (how much?), or deadly force? May I resist with equal force...? I will! I guess a commissioned security guard could try to club or shoot me...in which I case I would likely use deadly force to prevent such action.

I know a property owner is allowed to use force, even in some cases deadly force, to protect property. But am I allowed to resist (assuming I didn't steal anything). Non-LEO's ought to make darn sure they KNOW you're stealing before they escalate... I just don't see the little old lady at Wally World/Sam's drilling me in the back with a .45 'cause I didn't show the receipt for my 4 gallon jug of peanut butter. On the other hand, if I did a snatch and grab of an AR at the local gun store, I would reasonably expect to have a few extra openings before I made it out the door.

You are not required to comply but you are not justified in using force to resist unless their arrest is without legal justification. That doesn't mean they must be right in the belief someone stole property but just that they comply with the law in that their belief was reasonable. Now this is criminal, civil is totally separate.

Do we have a legal cite? Of the amount of force that may be used to detain/arrest by a non-LEO and when it crosses into assault. And likewise when my resistance to such becomes a crime? Chapter & section please?

[srothstein]

While it is problematic on deciding if there is a legal authority to search or not, and whether you may resist it or not, the line for when you can resist a detention is much clearer. Note that the laws specifically allowing a person to detain you for investigation have been posted, and two different laws allowing the arrest have also been posted (citizen's arrest and prevent the consequences of a theft).

So, your resistance becomes a crime when you leave the scene. Specifically, Penal Code section 38.06 says:

ESCAPE. (a) A person commits an offense if the person escapes from custody when the person is:
(1) under arrest for, lawfully detained for, charged with, or convicted of an offense;

Note that it does not say arrested or detained by a peace officer. The punishments later in that section make it more explicit by having special circumstances for being in a law enforcement facility. It also makes it a first degree felony if you use a deadly weapon to escape.

On the search side, please note that Code of Criminal Procedure Article 18.16 does say the person has to seize the stolen property, and then the person only if they can be taken. To seize property certainly implies to me the search is authorized under those circumstances. It also implies the LPO better be correct though.

[EEllis]

Do we have a legal cite? Of the amount of force that may be used to detain/arrest by a non-LEO and when it crosses into assault. And likewise when my resistance to such becomes a crime? Chapter & section please?

First off you can believe what you want but the demands that people cite chapter and verse to support a point come off a bit abrupt to me. I'm not trying to single you out ScottDSL as many people do so and personally I would take a "I would like/love/enjoy/hope/what have you/ to know the cite" better than a demand to produce which is so common.

The issue isn't is there some set amount of force where if you use more than a certain amount it crosses into assault. It crosses into assault when it becomes unreasonable and that is something that gets judged by a court. If a court believes that a store stopped someone "with authority of the law", in this case the shopkeeper's privilege, then there is zero justification for any use of force that can be considered criminal. There is no "resisting shopkeeper's privilege" or anything crazy like that but simply speaking there is no justification for any use of force against someone who's actions are legal. If a merchant uses to much force then they are no longer considered to be acting under "authority of law" because the texas code (Tex. Civ. Prac. & Rem. Code Ann. § 124.001) requires them to be reasonable and excessive force is unreasonable. So there is no hard and fast "line". If the merchant can convince a judge that stopping you was reasonable than any force you use can be considered criminal.

[Dragonfighter]

Okay, this isn't intended to stir the pot,muddy the waters or anything of that nature but a consideration/question has occurred to me after reading this thread.

EEllis has explained to my satisfaction that there exists legal authority to detain and probably conduct a cursory search if they believe an actor to be in the act of thieving.

I did a little stint in LP and then as commissioned security patrol, working my way through college, and had some incidents that relate, at least tangentially. From the LP side there were no "do not confront" admonitions then but a strict "they have to exit" rule. I used a rather imposing, yet dashing, presence and wording to hold the person until police arrived. From the commissioned security side I had a couple of felony in progress incidents where some force and threat of force was used.

What I remember from those days about "citizen's arrest" which was where a security officer's authority resided was witnessed felony, or in the case of theft "reasonable suspicion" (previously discussed) and the example I like to use there was a lobby guard gets a call that a man stole a red purse and ran down the stairs. A man runs out of the stair well carrying a red purse, that is "reasonable suspicion" and the stop is made and person detained for a magistrate, or LEO considered working at the behest of a magistrate and is proper even if THIS guy was trying to catch his wife who had coincidentally left her purse on hubby's desk. I am certain those amongst our membership that are still in the profession can clarify or correct as needed.

I said all that to say this, in every encounter I had one of the earliest things was me saying who I was and exactly why I was approaching, detaining or otherwise. Thus my question. A lot has been said about "resisting" a store keeper's detention and searches and Mr Ellis has suggested that doing so, even if the proprietor was wrong would likely be criminal. If said store owner approaches under "reasonable" suspicion but hasn't said something to the effect of, "Sir, I need you to stop. We need to check your bags because of "X, Y Z" reason," and lays hands on you first or just impedes your exit, then would it not be reasonable for the person being "accosted" at this point to "reasonably" believe they are being harassed or otherwise threatened?

I can point to two incidents in my own life where it turned ugly quickly and the LP in one instance was injured. Came up behind me, said "Stop." and put his hand on my shoulder. Once he was down and I had control we got the cops involved and even after he explained why he approached me, I was asked if I wanted to prefer charges. I did not.

This discussion is steeped in convoluted hypothetical and hyperbole but with all this discussion of "reasonable suspicion", what about sauce for the goose?