Mall security and right to physically detain you

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Right2Carry
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Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you

#91

Post by Right2Carry »

EEllis wrote:It's kind of funny that this issue creates such emotion in some people. here is a link to a story about a woman who assaulted a greeter at walmart when she was asked for a receipt. The funny thing is she had the receipt.
http://consumerist.com/2011/12/28/walma ... -the-face/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Then there was the guy on trial for knocking down a greeter when he "Defended Himself" after a greeter touched him.
http://consumerist.com/2008/03/12/man-o ... t-checker/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here is a story about a couple who gave a smack down to a best buy employee who dared ask for a receipt when the couple paid for an item somewhere beside the front checkouts. Since the employee couldn't of seen them pay he asked for a receipt. Big mistake.
http://consumerist.com/2012/12/21/coupl ... t-checker/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;




Now I don't think checking receipts are in and of themselves all that effective at stopping thevies. I do think that if a store routinely checks everyones receipt that a sizable amount of potential thieves will decide not to even try. I believe the theory is that while they won't directly catch people stealing theft generally is reduced. Now we don't have access to the numbers that would prove or disprove such belief but it does seem reasonable to me. For all the money these store make they don't have that big a margin on alot of their items. They are forced to charge more money for what they do sell because of theft. If walmart will have to raise prices if the do away with receipt checkers then I would just ass soon they keep them. Those that don't like it why not go to the many nicer places that wont ask for your receipt.
I buy online at best buy all the time then pick up at the store at the online purchase counter in customer service. When I leave I am leaving from a different area of the store with my merchandise because it was already paid for online. I have no problem if someone asks for my receipt. The only reason I do this is because I haven't paid at the front counter where normal transactions take place at Best Buy.

Sams and Costco I show as well as that is part of the membership. Frys or anywhere else I will usually ignore the receipt checkers as I have already paid for the merchandise and am leaving the only way I can. Wal Mart if I pay at the front counter I would ignore any receipt checker. If I checked out in sporting goods or electronics and get asked I will usually comply as again I checked out in another area of the store and understand why I might be asked for a receipt. I usually keep my receipt out just show them and have never had one look in my bags. When I check out in sporting goods or electronics I usually tie my bags closed in a knot at the checkout.
“Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, an American Soldier doesn't have that problem". — President Ronald Reagan, 1985

EEllis
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Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you

#92

Post by EEllis »

gringo pistolero wrote: Are you saying every search is reasonable, regardless of the facts? Because it sure sounds like it when you ignore the FACT he didn't steal anything to justify searching him without consent.
There is no search. Maybe, if they stop you for not showing a receipt and hold you there might be a seizure. But honestly I don't think we have a single situation where there was a search.
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jmra
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Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you

#93

Post by jmra »

Charlies.Contingency wrote:
Abraham wrote:Charlies.Contingency,

We've gotten off track somewhere...

"If you didn't pay for it... and I ask you for a receipt, you're still comparing me to a Nazi?"

No, not at all.

My last post was of course if you did pay for it.

Remember, I'm not a fan of thieves, but principle...

And keep smiling, believe it or not, I'm on your side.
Okay, can we get this straight then. Whether or not you paid for it, whether or not there is proof, or lack there of...

Asking for a receipt, can the store owner not logically believe that the property is his, and ask for confirmation as to whether or not the individual paid for the merchandise? I see it as in their right, if there is any for him to question it at all, a store owner owns the store and what's in it, and does not need to prove that the property in the store is his. A visitor should have to prove that what he is taking is rightfully his. (We'll avoid talking about things that the store doesn't own and crap.) But something that the store sells, the shopper has in their possession, whether straight from a register, from the register and then after walking around, or straight from the isles of the store.

(I think I edited that post, I don't remember it like that, but who knows, I'm distracted right now. Typing with a fractured hand is making it hard to concentrate!)

{Are you just being a Devil's advocate? You're final statement could be interpreted that way.}
You are making some incorrect assumptions. Everything in the store belongs to you until I pay for it. Once I pay for it and I have a receipt, the items and the receipt are my property and you have no right to them once they are mine. If you think you have proof that I stole something, stop and detain me. But when the police get there and I show them the receipt and you are proven to be wrong you are going to pay dearly.
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Right2Carry
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Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you

#94

Post by Right2Carry »

gljjt wrote:
Charlies.Contingency wrote:
Abraham wrote:Charlies.Contingency,

This debate is fun. And, remember, we're not talking about Sams/Costco. No membership agreements here.

Let's assume I've paid for my purchases, have my receipt, but your store isn't efficient enough to have noticed. That's your problem, not mine. I've done the right thing...

Next, before exiting the store, I'm demanded my receipt to show proof of what I'm walking out of the store with.

I refuse on principle.

You, store owner, call the police.

When they show up and I'm proven innocent, you gonna be inna hepa trouble.

Why should the onus of proving my innocence fall on my shoulders, rather than yours? If you can't be efficient enough in your business practices to be certain I'm a thief, why am I obligated to a degrading search...? That doesn't wash.

Oh, for you that think this is being a drama queen, think again. Get on the cattle car, the train is heading where you don't want to go...

No more than proving I paid for my groceries before leaving the store am I going to put up with this exercise.

At least, not without a fight...
Oh ho ho, say I'm in my store, you check out, you go round about the store again, I ask to see your receipt to compare to what you now have in your bag? How am I guilty of wrong doing? Because I'm so inefficient at my job that I can't hove you to see you sneak something, yes, that's brilliant. Sue me, or fight me getting out the door because you're defending your rights to be a jerk. I'm willing to bet on whose side a jury would take on this if you "defended yourself" from a store owner.

BTW, I'm actually enjoying this debate, it's helping kill time at the moment. :cheers2: Also, I don't know if I'm on the same page, but we're past "receipt checkers. I'm talking about rights and property ownership now.

You can't just claim anything is yours and take it, that's called stealing if I can't prove you paid for it. Sorry.
Its called mine until you prove I stole it. If I paid, walked from the cashier to the door and the store can't determine whether I paid or not, that's their problem. With that said, I show my receipt. I made the decision that I am not going to take my disagreement with the store out on the near minimum wage receipt checker. That's not fair to them. I am polite and 'cooperative'. If I get attitude though, I'll plant my rump on the floor and tell them to call the police. The receipt is in my wallet. When the police arrive I would not consent to a search, but would make it clear I wouldn't resist. Unless the store clearly says they think I stole their property, I'll bet the cop doesn't search me. Unless I am arrested, I'm pretty sure he can't search my wallet.
I think the store owners can make the same claim, the merchandise belongs to them until you prove you paid for it!
“Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, an American Soldier doesn't have that problem". — President Ronald Reagan, 1985
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Charlies.Contingency
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Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you

#95

Post by Charlies.Contingency »

jmra wrote:If you are going to own a store I suggest you learn what you can and can not legally do, if you plan to own the store very long that is. If I'm in a hurry and the Walmart greeter asks if they can see my receipt I simply say "no thanks". The only time they will bat an eye is if the alarm sounds on the way out. I've never had an issue.
Now I'm a member of Costco. As a member I agree to let them check my receipt on the way out. No problem with that because I agreed to it from the get go. I have no such agreement with any other establishment.
That seemed kind of personal, I really don't care too much for this, and I don't own or will own a store. I'm just digging into the topic, because apparently we have some people on here with very different opinions on this matter.
gringo wrote:Are you saying every search is reasonable, regardless of the facts? Because it sure sounds like it when you ignore the FACT he didn't steal anything to justify searching him without consent.
Who said anything about searching? Please get on topic. And if you'll notice, I'm talking about whether or not somebody paid.
You are on a fishing expedition. You are taking one line out of context. If you see me tuck a steak under my shirt, say so. If you think I have stolen from you, say so. If you think there is merchandise in my cart I didn't pay for, say so. Then we go through the process. I am not subject to detainment, searches, etc., on a whim. Accuse me, leave me alone or ask me to leave. Those are your only options. Follow the law and say you have probable cause and call the police. I'll wait. If you just come up and demand to see a receipt without cause, well, you can pound sand. If you think you can detain me without reasonable cause, you are in violation of the law. If you call the police, you better be prepared to convince them you have probable cause, because without it they let me walk. Did you read the part where I said I would show a receipt? Unless I got attitude.
Wow... Please forgive me for forgetting to post every time I put a post, that I'm not talking about asking every person. If you'll look around, I've been saying, or trying to say, "given a reason." Why would I want to harass you if I didn't know about it? I know you only said all that because you didn't know I was talking about this with some reason behind asking. Why would I be talking about searching and harassing every single person in the world when I have not made reference to doing so. Seriously... I keep having to stop and delete the mean things I want to say, I'm trying to refrain.
BTW, I am done on this thread. If you think you have more detain, search, etc., power as a merchant than law enforcement, you are mistaken.
Oh yes, I forgot, as a merchant, I can strip search you on demand, and make you provide your tax records, and imprison you for no cause... really, just stop and leave.
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Cedar Park Dad
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Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you

#96

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How should a CHLer properly handle this? I always thought-"no you can't search me. No I will not go anywhere, but I will stay right here. I am now calling the police and they can handle the situation." Is that wrong?
As for store security.... again... the store has a need to prevent theft. If I was stopped by LP, and they wanted to search or detain me, I would ask them to call the police. I would absolutely not allow anyone to search me or sequester me in a back room. But, I'm happy to stand quietly in a public place while the police are called.
This exactly. Is this the best method of handling the situation? What if they then put their hands on me if I refuse a search or moving to a different location (again this plainly assumes these are not LEOs)
To bring it back to topic, again as a CHLer is this best practice?
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Charlies.Contingency
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Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you

#97

Post by Charlies.Contingency »

jmra wrote:
Charlies.Contingency wrote:
Abraham wrote:Charlies.Contingency,

We've gotten off track somewhere...

"If you didn't pay for it... and I ask you for a receipt, you're still comparing me to a Nazi?"

No, not at all.

My last post was of course if you did pay for it.

Remember, I'm not a fan of thieves, but principle...

And keep smiling, believe it or not, I'm on your side.
Okay, can we get this straight then. Whether or not you paid for it, whether or not there is proof, or lack there of...

Asking for a receipt, can the store owner not logically believe that the property is his, and ask for confirmation as to whether or not the individual paid for the merchandise? I see it as in their right, if there is any for him to question it at all, a store owner owns the store and what's in it, and does not need to prove that the property in the store is his. A visitor should have to prove that what he is taking is rightfully his. (We'll avoid talking about things that the store doesn't own and crap.) But something that the store sells, the shopper has in their possession, whether straight from a register, from the register and then after walking around, or straight from the isles of the store.

(I think I edited that post, I don't remember it like that, but who knows, I'm distracted right now. Typing with a fractured hand is making it hard to concentrate!)

{Are you just being a Devil's advocate? You're final statement could be interpreted that way.}
You are making some incorrect assumptions. Everything in the store belongs to you until I pay for it. Once I pay for it and I have a receipt, the items and the receipt are my property and you have no right to them once they are mine. If you think you have proof that I stole something, stop and detain me. But when the police get there and I show them the receipt and you are proven to be wrong you are going to pay dearly.
I missed the part about the assumptions, could you point them out. And yes, it belongs to me until you pay for it. If I have reason to stop you about it, then that is my right. And you keep bring up that I would pay dearly? That's what running along the lines of some sort of threat, please explain what you're tying to say, otherwise it's just saying, "You're gonna pay for this." That can mean several different things to me, and I am out of the loop apparently, or just getting to old to understand things.
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Charlies.Contingency
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Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you

#98

Post by Charlies.Contingency »

Cedar Park Dad wrote:

How should a CHLer properly handle this? I always thought-"no you can't search me. No I will not go anywhere, but I will stay right here. I am now calling the police and they can handle the situation." Is that wrong?
As for store security.... again... the store has a need to prevent theft. If I was stopped by LP, and they wanted to search or detain me, I would ask them to call the police. I would absolutely not allow anyone to search me or sequester me in a back room. But, I'm happy to stand quietly in a public place while the police are called.
This exactly. Is this the best method of handling the situation? What if they then put their hands on me if I refuse a search or moving to a different location (again this plainly assumes these are not LEOs)
To bring it back to topic, again as a CHLer is this best practice?
You party pooper. Dropping in and putting us on topic, shame on you. :lol::

I think I said before, that is really gray, and I'm not too sure, since there's so many variables....
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Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you

#99

Post by jmra »

Charlies.Contingency wrote:
jmra wrote:
Charlies.Contingency wrote:
Abraham wrote:Charlies.Contingency,

We've gotten off track somewhere...

"If you didn't pay for it... and I ask you for a receipt, you're still comparing me to a Nazi?"

No, not at all.

My last post was of course if you did pay for it.

Remember, I'm not a fan of thieves, but principle...

And keep smiling, believe it or not, I'm on your side.
Okay, can we get this straight then. Whether or not you paid for it, whether or not there is proof, or lack there of...

Asking for a receipt, can the store owner not logically believe that the property is his, and ask for confirmation as to whether or not the individual paid for the merchandise? I see it as in their right, if there is any for him to question it at all, a store owner owns the store and what's in it, and does not need to prove that the property in the store is his. A visitor should have to prove that what he is taking is rightfully his. (We'll avoid talking about things that the store doesn't own and crap.) But something that the store sells, the shopper has in their possession, whether straight from a register, from the register and then after walking around, or straight from the isles of the store.

(I think I edited that post, I don't remember it like that, but who knows, I'm distracted right now. Typing with a fractured hand is making it hard to concentrate!)

{Are you just being a Devil's advocate? You're final statement could be interpreted that way.}
You are making some incorrect assumptions. Everything in the store belongs to you until I pay for it. Once I pay for it and I have a receipt, the items and the receipt are my property and you have no right to them once they are mine. If you think you have proof that I stole something, stop and detain me. But when the police get there and I show them the receipt and you are proven to be wrong you are going to pay dearly.
I missed the part about the assumptions, could you point them out. And yes, it belongs to me until you pay for it. If I have reason to stop you about it, then that is my right. And you keep bring up that I would pay dearly? That's what running along the lines of some sort of threat, please explain what you're tying to say, otherwise it's just saying, "You're gonna pay for this." That can mean several different things to me, and I am out of the loop apparently, or just getting to old to understand things.
If I have done nothing wrong you have no right to detain me just because you want to make sure I didn't do anything wrong. To do so would be a violation of my rights which has legal ramifications.
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Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you

#100

Post by gringo pistolero »

Cedar Park Dad wrote:To bring it back to topic, again as a CHLer is this best practice?
Best Practice is to avoid businesses where they accuse paying customers of being thieves because they're too incompetent to realize when someone is walking directly from the register to the exit after paying.
I sincerely apologize to anybody I offended by suggesting the Second Amendment also applies to The People who don't work for the government.

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Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you

#101

Post by gringo pistolero »

Charlies.Contingency wrote:
Abraham wrote:"Whatever shoplifting/theft problems they have are theirs, not mine. Once money changes hands at the register, their merchandise becomes my personal property and I have no obligation to account for any of it to anyone."
Well that's just dandy, you go ahead and refuse to comply with store owners and workers who are doing their job, and providing you merchandise. If I were somebody in that position, you be banned from the store
If some ill-bred incompetents accuse me of being a thief less than 90 seconds after I paid, I won't be back anyway. :roll:
I sincerely apologize to anybody I offended by suggesting the Second Amendment also applies to The People who don't work for the government.
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Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you

#102

Post by jmra »

Figured I'd see what the experts say about it. From consumer-law.lawyers.com

"Do You Have to Show?
As a general rule, stores can't force you to show a receipt before letting you leave the store. You can politely refuse to show your receipt and continue walking out the door."

That should pretty much settle things.
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Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you

#103

Post by jmra »

gringo pistolero wrote:
Cedar Park Dad wrote:To bring it back to topic, again as a CHLer is this best practice?
Best Practice is to avoid businesses where they accuse paying customers of being thieves because they're too incompetent to realize when someone is walking directly from the register to the exit after paying.
:iagree:
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Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you

#104

Post by EEllis »

I think there are two things going on in this thread. One there is a group of people that seem to have taken the position that no one commenting negatively about receipt would never steal and can't have mistakenly exited without full payment for any and every item. And that may be so but as a standard for business owners it seems a bit pollyanna, An issue that also seems to be missed is that ones behavior, however noble and innocent, cannot give RS to believe that one might be stealing, thus making it not illegal for the store to detain in order to investigate.
Second some people seem to be under the impression that by stopping them the store is committing a crime that then allows them to respond with force. I'm not saying you can't make that legal argument. I am saying that unless it is an extreme case, like you didn't resist and were injured in a significant way or the store employees used drastically excessive force, the likelihood is that by physically resisting you would end up with an assault charge. Sure there are charges like false imprisonment that could apply,but don't bank on it. The real remedy that people get to use isn't violence or criminal but civil. If they stop you, and really stop you not just ask, or even just openly say your a thief then if you can prove it you will end up costing the store money.
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Re: Mall security and right to physically detain you

#105

Post by jmra »

EEllis wrote:I think there are two things going on in this thread. One there is a group of people that seem to have taken the position that no one commenting negatively about receipt would never steal and can't have mistakenly exited without full payment for any and every item. And that may be so but as a standard for business owners it seems a bit pollyanna, An issue that also seems to be missed is that ones behavior, however noble and innocent, cannot give RS to believe that one might be stealing, thus making it not illegal for the store to detain in order to investigate.
Second some people seem to be under the impression that by stopping them the store is committing a crime that then allows them to respond with force. I'm not saying you can't make that legal argument. I am saying that unless it is an extreme case, like you didn't resist and were injured in a significant way or the store employees used drastically excessive force, the likelihood is that by physically resisting you would end up with an assault charge. Sure there are charges like false imprisonment that could apply,but don't bank on it. The real remedy that people get to use isn't violence or criminal but civil. If they stop you, and really stop you not just ask, or even just openly say your a thief then if you can prove it you will end up costing the store money.
I would never make a scene, but unless the alarms go off I just keep walking. Never been followed or questioned further. In fact, the greeters will check the receipt in front of me and look the other way when I walk out. It doesn't take them long to figure out whose not a Lemming.
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