Mall security and right to physically detain you

[Abraham]

jmra,

Precisely!

Principle isn't something everyone values.

If your store is so weak that from the cashier to exiting I have to prove I've paid for what I've paid for, well I'm sure you can guess the rest...

It isn't a matter of being obstreperous or being obnoxious, it's a matter of principle.

Some, find this idea puzzling. Why not just cooperate? Yeah, you paid and you're being treated like you didn't, but what's the big deal?

If, you can't figure that out, ok...get into the cattle car.

All of this being said: I too hate thieves. This current debate isn't about thieves. It's about principle.

[EEllis]

(Nice links btw.)

It's interesting. I never knew that it was such a big deal for some until I started looking around for this thread. The violence perpetrated on store employees for asking for a receipt boggles the mind. Amd I'm not even talking about violence from people trying to steal. Much of it is just from people who are "offended" they are being stopped. I will say that there does seem to be some real lack of training and knowledge for some store employees but the idea that someone just touching you is some criminal assault and you can retaliate by bashing the toucher, well that is just as foolish. We are people. Part of the way we communicate is by touch. While I'm not fond of people violating my personal space myself, I realize that someone reaching out can, and probably most likely is, more about getting my attention or emphasizing their point than trying to assault me. Escalation is stupid and most likely criminal.

[jmra]

Charlies.Contingency,

Fair enough.

Here's the deal.

I paid for my purchases. After that exchange the items are mine. Not the stores

The store employee doesn't have a right to assume I'm a thief by their actions of insisting I show a receipt.

I paid for my purchases. I don't live in 1960's East Berlin.

I'm not being rude if I simply walk past them.

If, they feel compelled to arrest me for walking past them, do so.

See what happens after that...

I guess the principle is mind boggling to some that you don't have to be disrespected by the receipt checking scenario. It would seem some are in favor of being considered a thief and a jerk for not meekly giving in to something rather degrading.

But hey, if you don't mind being treated like a thief, well enjoy...

If you were to have something from a place of business of mine, and try to leave with it, without any way of proving it's yours or that you bought it, it would not end well for you. If you paid for it, that's fine, but you don't need to have merchandise of my business in my business, without a receipt showing that you own it. Unless you do, everything in that store that's mine, is mine. You can't just walk into a convenient store with pockets full of snickers, and not expect trouble. As far as anybody's concerned, it's stealing unless you can prove their yours. Inventory could be checked later, but if there's no evidence in your favor, sucks to be you.

So by me asking people to show a receipt, that's treating them like a thief? So I should never ask for a receipt, because I will hurt somebody's feelings? That will get me far in business when people are ripping me off...

I reserve the right to ask you for a receipt, but remember that I reserve the right to defend my business from thieves. You're not a thief if you show that it's your receipt should I feel the need to. Not having the right to make you prove it is ridiculous. How then can you prove theft? You don't have to show any receipt, it's yours because you say it is, that should be good enough, right? I don't think so, if it ever comes to that, you'll see stores where you can't shop, and you have to pay for an item up front, so you couldn't just claim it's yours and leave... Is the only way to prove theft to have camera's watching everything you do everywhere your at, because you didn't steal anything unless we have 100% solid evidence? That's a load of... Sorry if we disagree, but that's the way I see it.

Guilty until proven innocent.

It's called it's not your property if it belongs to the store, how about that? Is it that hard to comprehend? I go into a store, and I pick up a rolex and nobody sees, who does it belong to? Me or the store? If it belongs to the store, it belongs to the store until you leave with proof of purchase in my opinion, otherwise everything is yours as soon as you pick it up, because nobody can prove otherwise.

Once I have paid for something it is mine and no longer yours. Unless you have proof I stole it, it's none of your business. I don't have to prove I didn't steal it, you have to prove I did.

[Abraham]

Bingo!

[gljjt]

Charlies.Contingency,

This debate is fun. And, remember, we're not talking about Sams/Costco. No membership agreements here.

Let's assume I've paid for my purchases, have my receipt, but your store isn't efficient enough to have noticed. That's your problem, not mine. I've done the right thing...

Next, before exiting the store, I'm demanded my receipt to show proof of what I'm walking out of the store with.

I refuse on principle.

You, store owner, call the police.

When they show up and I'm proven innocent, you gonna be inna hepa trouble.

Why should the onus of proving my innocence fall on my shoulders, rather than yours? If you can't be efficient enough in your business practices to be certain I'm a thief, why am I obligated to a degrading search...? That doesn't wash.

Oh, for you that think this is being a drama queen, think again. Get on the cattle car, the train is heading where you don't want to go...

No more than proving I paid for my groceries before leaving the store am I going to put up with this exercise.

At least, not without a fight...

Oh ho ho, say I'm in my store, you check out, you go round about the store again, I ask to see your receipt to compare to what you now have in your bag? How am I guilty of wrong doing? Because I'm so inefficient at my job that I can't hove you to see you sneak something, yes, that's brilliant. Sue me, or fight me getting out the door because you're defending your rights to be a jerk. I'm willing to bet on whose side a jury would take on this if you "defended yourself" from a store owner.

BTW, I'm actually enjoying this debate, it's helping kill time at the moment. Also, I don't know if I'm on the same page, but we're past "receipt checkers. I'm talking about rights and property ownership now.

You can't just claim anything is yours and take it, that's called stealing if I can't prove you paid for it. Sorry.

Its called mine until you prove I stole it. If I paid, walked from the cashier to the door and the store can't determine whether I paid or not, that's their problem. With that said, I show my receipt. I made the decision that I am not going to take my disagreement with the store out on the near minimum wage receipt checker. That's not fair to them. I am polite and 'cooperative'. If I get attitude though, I'll plant my rump on the floor and tell them to call the police. The receipt is in my wallet. When the police arrive I would not consent to a search, but would make it clear I wouldn't resist. Unless the store clearly says they think I stole their property, I'll bet the cop doesn't search me. Unless I am arrested, I'm pretty sure he can't search my wallet.

[Charlies.Contingency]

Charlies.Contingency,

Fair enough.

Here's the deal.

I paid for my purchases. After that exchange the items are mine. Not the stores

The store employee doesn't have a right to assume I'm a thief by their actions of insisting I show a receipt.

I paid for my purchases. I don't live in 1960's East Berlin.

I'm not being rude if I simply walk past them.

If, they feel compelled to arrest me for walking past them, do so.

See what happens after that...

I guess the principle is mind boggling to some that you don't have to be disrespected by the receipt checking scenario. It would seem some are in favor of being considered a thief and a jerk for not meekly giving in to something rather degrading.

But hey, if you don't mind being treated like a thief, well enjoy...

If you were to have something from a place of business of mine, and try to leave with it, without any way of proving it's yours or that you bought it, it would not end well for you. If you paid for it, that's fine, but you don't need to have merchandise of my business in my business, without a receipt showing that you own it. Unless you do, everything in that store that's mine, is mine. You can't just walk into a convenient store with pockets full of snickers, and not expect trouble. As far as anybody's concerned, it's stealing unless you can prove their yours. Inventory could be checked later, but if there's no evidence in your favor, sucks to be you.

So by me asking people to show a receipt, that's treating them like a thief? So I should never ask for a receipt, because I will hurt somebody's feelings? That will get me far in business when people are ripping me off...

I reserve the right to ask you for a receipt, but remember that I reserve the right to defend my business from thieves. You're not a thief if you show that it's your receipt should I feel the need to. Not having the right to make you prove it is ridiculous. How then can you prove theft? You don't have to show any receipt, it's yours because you say it is, that should be good enough, right? I don't think so, if it ever comes to that, you'll see stores where you can't shop, and you have to pay for an item up front, so you couldn't just claim it's yours and leave... Is the only way to prove theft to have camera's watching everything you do everywhere your at, because you didn't steal anything unless we have 100% solid evidence? That's a load of... Sorry if we disagree, but that's the way I see it.

Guilty until proven innocent.

It's called it's not your property if it belongs to the store, how about that? Is it that hard to comprehend? I go into a store, and I pick up a rolex and nobody sees, who does it belong to? Me or the store? If it belongs to the store, it belongs to the store until you leave with proof of purchase in my opinion, otherwise everything is yours as soon as you pick it up, because nobody can prove otherwise.

Once I have paid for something it is mine and no longer yours. Unless you have proof I stole it, it's none of your business. I don't have to prove I didn't steal it, you have to prove I did.

So, despite that EVERYTHING in the store belongs to me, if I can't prove the basket full of items hasn't been paid for, it sucks for me? I don't think so. Everything in the store can perceived as belonging to me, therefor, it is my property, unless you can prove otherwise. You can't just walk into my house, and take something, saying, "This belongs to me, you can't prove that I took it from you." That's crap, and you know it.

If everything in a store belongs to me, then it's my property. If you take a snickers, and say it's yours, and that you've paid for it here, or any other place, does that mean that it's yours? We might be able to prove later that it wasn't stolen off the shelf, but do I have the right to assume that everything in the store that I sell is my property, I think so. You can't just go somewhere and claim something to be yours that belonged to the store if you can't prove it, and leave, THAT IS CALLED STEALING. If everything in the store is mine, then what determines what is yours and mine, if your word is good enough. That's why there is something called a receipt.

[Abraham]

At this point, this thread reminds me of those in power who insist: Show me your papers schweinhund.

You paid for your purchases.

The merchant, whose inefficiency insists you prove your innocence regarding your purchases before you leave is the salient issue.

Arrest me.

Then wait for the fall out...

[Charlies.Contingency]

Its called mine until you prove I stole it.

That quote alone from what you just said, says it all. There is no limit to what is mine. Everything in any store is mine, until you prove I've stolen that, is that correct? Wait, you just said so. I go into your house as a guest, everything is mine unless you can prove I stole it. I ride in your car, everything is mine unless you can prove I stole it. Guess what, you can't prove everything...

That's where the argument falls apart.

Somebody goes into a store, takes something, say a steak off the shelf, and walks out the door. According to your statement, if it were not false, would mean that they have done nothing wrong unless somebody can prove that they stole it. We all know that is not true. If I say I want you to prove you already paid for it, it is your duty to prove it, otherwise it can be perceived as belonging to me. I don't have to compile a case with pictures, video, and testimony before I can confront you. It's called you get arrested, and an investigation begins. If you're innocent, good for you, but you had the ability at some point to prove that it belonged to you. Until then, everything in the store belongs to me, unless you buy it and maintain your proof of purchase. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

[Charlies.Contingency]

At this point, this thread reminds me of those in power who insist: Show me your papers schweinhund.

You paid for your purchases.

The merchant, whose inefficiency insists you prove your innocence regarding your purchases before you leave is the salient issue.

Arrest me.

Then wait for the fall out...

You're talking about something you already paid for. You're totally skipping the conversation to make yourself sound better it seems. Get with the program, I'm talking about it in general, whether you paid or not, whether it belonged to the store or not.

I'm starting to lose interest in this topic, I was hoping for something better...

[Abraham]

Charlies.Contingency,

We've gotten off track somewhere...

"If you didn't pay for it... and I ask you for a receipt, you're still comparing me to a Nazi?"

No, not at all.

My last post was of course if you did pay for it.

Remember, I'm not a fan of thieves, but principle...

And keep smiling, believe it or not, I'm on your side.

[Charlies.Contingency]

Charlies.Contingency,

We've gotten off track somewhere...

"If you didn't pay for it... and I ask you for a receipt, you're still comparing me to a Nazi?"

No, not at all.

My last post was of course if you did pay for it.

Remember, I'm not a fan of thieves, but principle...

And keep smiling, believe it or not, I'm on your side.

Okay, can we get this straight then. Whether or not you paid for it, whether or not there is proof, or lack there of...

Asking for a receipt, can the store owner not logically believe that the property is his, and ask for confirmation as to whether or not the individual paid for the merchandise? I see it as in their right, if there is any for him to question it at all, a store owner owns the store and what's in it, and does not need to prove that the property in the store is his. A visitor should have to prove that what he is taking is rightfully his. (We'll avoid talking about things that the store doesn't own and crap.) But something that the store sells, the shopper has in their possession, whether straight from a register, from the register and then after walking around, or straight from the isles of the store.

(I think I edited that post, I don't remember it like that, but who knows, I'm distracted right now. Typing with a fractured hand is making it hard to concentrate!)

{Are you just being a Devil's advocate? You're final statement could be interpreted that way.}

[jmra]

If you are going to own a store I suggest you learn what you can and can not legally do, if you plan to own the store very long that is. If I'm in a hurry and the Walmart greeter asks if they can see my receipt I simply say "no thanks". The only time they will bat an eye is if the alarm sounds on the way out. I've never had an issue.
Now I'm a member of Costco. As a member I agree to let them check my receipt on the way out. No problem with that because I agreed to it from the get go. I have no such agreement with any other establishment.

[gringo pistolero]

At this point, this thread reminds me of those in power who insist: Show me your papers schweinhund.

You paid for your purchases.

The merchant, whose inefficiency insists you prove your innocence regarding your purchases before you leave is the salient issue.

Arrest me.

Then wait for the fall out...

You're talking about something you already paid for. You're totally skipping the conversation to make yourself sound better it seems. Get with the program, I'm talking about it in general, whether you paid or not, whether it belonged to the store or not.

Are you saying every search is reasonable, regardless of the facts? Because it sure sounds like it when you ignore the FACT he didn't steal anything to justify searching him without consent.

[gljjt]

Its called mine until you prove I stole it.

That quote alone from what you just said, says it all. There is no limit to what is mine. Everything in any store is mine, until you prove I've stolen that, is that correct? Wait, you just said so. I go into your house as a guest, everything is mine unless you can prove I stole it. I ride in your car, everything is mine unless you can prove I stole it. Guess what, you can't prove everything...

That's where the argument falls apart.

Somebody goes into a store, takes something, say a steak off the shelf, and walks out the door. According to your statement, if it were not false, would mean that they have done nothing wrong unless somebody can prove that they stole it. We all know that is not true. If I say I want you to prove you already paid for it, it is your duty to prove it, otherwise it can be perceived as belonging to me. I don't have to compile a case with pictures, video, and testimony before I can confront you. It's called you get arrested, and an investigation begins. If you're innocent, good for you, but you had the ability at some point to prove that it belonged to you. Until then, everything in the store belongs to me, unless you buy it and maintain your proof of purchase. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

You are on a fishing expedition. You are taking one line out of context. If you see me tuck a steak under my shirt, say so. If you think I have stolen from you, say so. If you think there is merchandise in my cart I didn't pay for, say so. Then we go through the process. I am not subject to detainment, searches, etc., on a whim. Accuse me, leave me alone or ask me to leave. Those are your only options. Follow the law and say you have probable cause and call the police. I'll wait. If you just come up and demand to see a receipt without cause, well, you can pound sand. If you think you can detain me without reasonable cause, you are in violation of the law. If you call the police, you better be prepared to convince them you have probable cause, because without it they let me walk. Did you read the part where I said I would show a receipt? Unless I got attitude.

[gljjt]

Its called mine until you prove I stole it.

That quote alone from what you just said, says it all. There is no limit to what is mine. Everything in any store is mine, until you prove I've stolen that, is that correct? Wait, you just said so. I go into your house as a guest, everything is mine unless you can prove I stole it. I ride in your car, everything is mine unless you can prove I stole it. Guess what, you can't prove everything...

That's where the argument falls apart.

Somebody goes into a store, takes something, say a steak off the shelf, and walks out the door. According to your statement, if it were not false, would mean that they have done npothing wrong unless somebody can prove that they stole it. We all know that is not true. If I say I want you to prove you already paid for it, it is your duty to prove it, otherwise it can be perceived as belonging to me. I don't have to compile a case with pictures, video, and testimony before I can confront you. It's called you get arrested, and an investigation begins. If you're innocent, good for you, but you had the ability at some point to prove that it belonged to you. Until then, everything in the store belongs to me, unless you buy it and maintain your proof of purchase. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

You are on a fishing expedition. You are taking one line out of context. If you see me tuck a steak under my shirt, say so. If you think I have stolen from you, say so. If you think there is merchandise in my cart I didn't pay for, say so. Then we go through the process. I am not subject to detainment, searches, etc., on a whim. Accuse me, leave me alone or ask me to leave. Those are your only options. Follow the law and say you have probable cause and call the police. I'll wait. If you just come up and demand to see a receipt without cause, well, you can pound sand. If you think you can detain me without reasonable cause, you are in violation of the law. If you call the police, you better be prepared to convince them you have probable cause, because without it they let me walk. Did you read the part where I said I would show a receipt? Unless I got attitude.

BTW, I am done on this thread. If you think you have more detain, search, etc., power as a merchant than law enforcement, you are mistaken.