CHL Carry at Public Park/Ball Fields - No signs Posted

[trlrider]

OK, I am sure this have been covered a million times before, but here goes:
City of Seguin Ordinace reads as follows:

Sec. 70-73 Possession of firearms prohibited in certain places: exceptions.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a firearm within the city limits of the City of Seguin at:
(1) A public park; or
(2) A public meeting of a governmental body; or
(3) A political rally, political parade, or official meeting; or
(4) A nonfirearms-related school, college, or professional athletic event.
(5) at any place within the city limits where a concealed license holder is permitted to carry a firearm,
a person other than a licensed peace officer shall not carry an unconcealed weapon.
(b) It is an affirmative defense to prosectution for a violtation of this provision that:
(1) the firearm is in or is carried to or from an area designated for use in a lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting event, and the firearm
is of the type commonly used in the activity; or
(2) The firearm is being carried by a certified peace officer; or
(3) The fiream is being carried by a certified security officer in the performance of his employment.
(Ord. No. 95-7, 3-21-95; Ord. No. 2011-39, 2, 8-2-11

Now,
There are no visible signs posted anywhere within any of the city parks that I have found, or the little league fields which are located within one of the parks.

A visit to the police department today, resulted in a copy of the above ordinance being printed and given to me, a short discussion, a trip by the vary nice lady from administation to the officers area, and the following:
It seems that if it is not specifically posted, even though the ordinance reads as such, if it is not specifically forbidden under state law, then if "should" be okay to carry at the parks under my CHL.

Although, I am still confused, when you read under the CHL -16 published 9-2011 Local Governemnt Code 229.001 Firearms; Explosives. Subsection (b)(6) reads;
regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person other than a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchaprter H, Chapter 411, Goverment Code, at a;
(A) public park
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or other governmenal body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or a professional athletic event

No, I know it is simple, but it is still confusing:
The city ordinance states "Any person" and the state version states " other than a person licensed "

so which is it, does the city have the right to tell me I cannot carry concealed, or is the wording just so vague that even the officers are not sure?

Thanks for any guidance!

[Teamless]

My info below is based on the city park question, not the professional sports events or political arena's.

or is the wording just so vague that even the officers are not sure?

There is your answer, along with

regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person other than a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchaprter H, Chapter 411, Goverment Code, at a

For city parks, as long as you are not there with a school function (Like if the little league team was part of the school functions) carry away.
The parks here (Houston) are also posted with "no firearms allowed" and I look at the sign and say "Well, yea, if I don't have a valid CHL, and since I do I will carry away"

Like most signs, the government seems to think that a sign saying no guns are allowed, will deter criminals from bringing guns, no more than a no parking sign will stop people from parking in that spot!

[RPB]

unbelievable that they amended it in 2011, and didn't think enough to investigate the Texas Statutes.
They need to amend at least once more and add a line or wording about CHLs, including them with the LEOs could work.

If I lived there, I'd send my anonymous concerned taxpayer form letter to the Mayor, each city councilperson, the city manager, the city secretary and the city attorney, as well as to the police chief Customize it to fit that particular city's ordinances which conflict with State Law.

Search found 5 matches: +preemption +"form letter"
search.php?keywords=%2Bpreemption++%22form+letter%22" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

===============================

City of Sequin Municode
http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=10713" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Chapter 74 - PARKS AND RECREATION


Seguin, Texas, Code of Ordinances >> PART II - CODE OF ORDINANCES >> Chapter 70 - OFFENSES AND MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS >> ARTICLE IV. - FIREARMS AND WEAPONS >>
ARTICLE IV. - FIREARMS AND WEAPONS http://library.municode.com/HTML/10713/ ... VFIWE.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


==============================


http://www.seguintexas.gov/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Betty Ann Matthies, Mayor
Contact: Mayor's Office
210 E. Gonzales
P.O. Box 591
Seguin, Texas 78155
830-401-2308

City Manager Douglas G. Faseler
http://www.seguintexas.gov/government/city_manager/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


City Attorney
Contact: Andy Quittner
210 E. Gonzales
Seguin, Texas 78155
Ph: 830-401-2775
Fax: 830-401-2499


Each City Council Member
http://www.seguintexas.gov/government/city_council/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

City Secretary
http://www.seguintexas.gov/government/city_secretary/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Citizen Relations Coordinator
http://www.seguintexas.gov/government/government_home/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Police
http://www.seguintexas.gov/police/detai ... of_police/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
cc to police on facebook
http://www.seguintexas.gov/police/detai ... _facebook/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Crossfire]

You can read the whole section, if you want, but what you really need to know is at the bottom, in RED

PC §30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) “Entry” has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).
(2) “License holder” has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).
(3) “Written communication” means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: “Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun”; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

[RPB]

If I lived there, I'd have a form for each waitress to sign at every restaurant for each kid I took out to eat

Sec. 70-75. - Possession of knife by persons under age of 17.permanent link to this piece of content

It shall be unlawful for any person under the age of 17 to possess or carry any knife on a public roadway or public right-of-way; on any other property in which a governmental entity has an interest; or on private property without the permission of the owner or the person in control of the property within the city limits of the City of Seguin.
http://library.municode.com/HTML/10713/ ... VFIWE.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(Ord. No. 95-7, § 5, 3-21-95)

Scissors and axes are ok?

[Oldgringo]

When all is said and done, "concealed is concealed".

[smtimelevi]

OK, I am sure this have been covered a million times before, but here goes:
City of Seguin Ordinace reads as follows:

Sec. 70-73 Possession of firearms prohibited in certain places: exceptions.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a firearm within the city limits of the City of Seguin at:
(1) A public park; or
(2) A public meeting of a governmental body; or
(3) A political rally, political parade, or official meeting; or
(4) A nonfirearms-related school, college, or professional athletic event.
(5) at any place within the city limits where a concealed license holder is permitted to carry a firearm,
a person other than a licensed peace officer shall not carry an unconcealed weapon.
(b) It is an affirmative defense to prosectution for a violtation of this provision that:
(1) the firearm is in or is carried to or from an area designated for use in a lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting event, and the firearm
is of the type commonly used in the activity; or
(2) The firearm is being carried by a certified peace officer; or
(3) The fiream is being carried by a certified security officer in the performance of his employment.
(Ord. No. 95-7, 3-21-95; Ord. No. 2011-39, 2, 8-2-11

Now,
There are no visible signs posted anywhere within any of the city parks that I have found, or the little league fields which are located within one of the parks.

A visit to the police department today, resulted in a copy of the above ordinance being printed and given to me, a short discussion, a trip by the vary nice lady from administation to the officers area, and the following:
It seems that if it is not specifically posted, even though the ordinance reads as such, if it is not specifically forbidden under state law, then if "should" be okay to carry at the parks under my CHL.

Although, I am still confused, when you read under the CHL -16 published 9-2011 Local Governemnt Code 229.001 Firearms; Explosives. Subsection (b)(6) reads;
regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person other than a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchaprter H, Chapter 411, Goverment Code, at a;
(A) public park
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or other governmenal body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or a professional athletic event

No, I know it is simple, but it is still confusing:
The city ordinance states "Any person" and the state version states " other than a person licensed "

so which is it, does the city have the right to tell me I cannot carry concealed, or is the wording just so vague that even the officers are not sure?

Thanks for any guidance!

Any city ordinance conflicts with the states firearms preemption statute.

[trlrider]

I reference to my OP, the city attorney sent this clarification by e-mail:
"The ordinance is aimed at persons, other than CHL, carrying a weapon. Anyone with a concealed handgun license may carry in accordance with their license."

Would still be more comfortable if the wording of the City Ordinance matched that of the state LGC!
Anyway, I live in the county and really have no representation on the City Council, but do have aquaintances on the Council. Maybe they
can work to have the wording clarified.

Thank you for the responses!

[The Annoyed Man]

OK, I am sure this have been covered a million times before, but here goes:
City of Seguin Ordinace reads as follows:

Sec. 70-73 Possession of firearms prohibited in certain places: exceptions.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a firearm within the city limits of the City of Seguin at:
(1) A public park; or
(2) A public meeting of a governmental body; or
(3) A political rally, political parade, or official meeting; or
(4) A nonfirearms-related school, college, or professional athletic event.
(5) at any place within the city limits where a concealed license holder is permitted to carry a firearm,
a person other than a licensed peace officer shall not carry an unconcealed weapon.
(b) It is an affirmative defense to prosectution for a violtation of this provision that:
(1) the firearm is in or is carried to or from an area designated for use in a lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting event, and the firearm
is of the type commonly used in the activity; or
(2) The firearm is being carried by a certified peace officer; or
(3) The fiream is being carried by a certified security officer in the performance of his employment.
(Ord. No. 95-7, 3-21-95; Ord. No. 2011-39, 2, 8-2-11

Now,
There are no visible signs posted anywhere within any of the city parks that I have found, or the little league fields which are located within one of the parks.

A visit to the police department today, resulted in a copy of the above ordinance being printed and given to me, a short discussion, a trip by the vary nice lady from administation to the officers area, and the following:
It seems that if it is not specifically posted, even though the ordinance reads as such, if it is not specifically forbidden under state law, then if "should" be okay to carry at the parks under my CHL.

Although, I am still confused, when you read under the CHL -16 published 9-2011 Local Governemnt Code 229.001 Firearms; Explosives. Subsection (b)(6) reads;
regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person other than a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchaprter H, Chapter 411, Goverment Code, at a;
(A) public park
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or other governmenal body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or a professional athletic event

No, I know it is simple, but it is still confusing:
The city ordinance states "Any person" and the state version states " other than a person licensed "

so which is it, does the city have the right to tell me I cannot carry concealed, or is the wording just so vague that even the officers are not sure?

Thanks for any guidance!

I read Sec. 70-73(a)(5) to mean that it is an exception: "at any place within the city limits where a concealed license holder is permitted to carry a firearm, you may do so if you have a CHL; AND, if you are not a LEO nor do you have a CHL, then you may NOT carry a firearm." That means that Seguin acknowledges preemption, and that holders of CHLs are exempt—by state law—from any restrictions against carrying a firearm any place where it would normally be legal for a CHL holder. In other words, you've got nothing to worry about. Follow the STATE laws, and you'll be in compliance with anything Seguin passes.

[srothstein]

I read this as the original city ordinance forbid carrying at the four places listed in LGC that cities are allowed to regulate. These are listed as parts 1 through 4 of section a. When they were told to, they tried to amend it to allow CHLs by including subsection 5, which just bans CHLs from open carrying where allowed to carry concealed. This is very poorly worded and done, but the part showing this is that the word "or" is between three and four. That makes all of A one sentence normally, but in this case it means that subsection 5 is a second sentence to be read with part a. The exceptions are all listed in part b.

Now, as to the legality of this law, I am not sure it would hold up because of the poor wording of the amendment. State law allows the city to ban at certain areas but does not allow them to override the state law requiring proper notice. A CHL can basically ignore the ordinance unless they properly post also. I will add the warning that you might still get arrested or ticketed (city ordinances are only class C misdemeanors) for violating it but should win in court if you do.

[CoffeeNut]

OK, I am sure this have been covered a million times before, but here goes:
City of Seguin Ordinace reads as follows:

Sec. 70-73 Possession of firearms prohibited in certain places: exceptions.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a firearm within the city limits of the City of Seguin at:
(1) A public park; or
(2) A public meeting of a governmental body; or
(3) A political rally, political parade, or official meeting; or
(4) A nonfirearms-related school, college, or professional athletic event.
(5) at any place within the city limits where a concealed license holder is permitted to carry a firearm,
a person other than a licensed peace officer shall not carry an unconcealed weapon.
(b) It is an affirmative defense to prosectution for a violtation of this provision that:
(1) the firearm is in or is carried to or from an area designated for use in a lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting event, and the firearm
is of the type commonly used in the activity; or
(2) The firearm is being carried by a certified peace officer; or
(3) The fiream is being carried by a certified security officer in the performance of his employment.
(Ord. No. 95-7, 3-21-95; Ord. No. 2011-39, 2, 8-2-11

Now,
There are no visible signs posted anywhere within any of the city parks that I have found, or the little league fields which are located within one of the parks.

A visit to the police department today, resulted in a copy of the above ordinance being printed and given to me, a short discussion, a trip by the vary nice lady from administation to the officers area, and the following:
It seems that if it is not specifically posted, even though the ordinance reads as such, if it is not specifically forbidden under state law, then if "should" be okay to carry at the parks under my CHL.

Although, I am still confused, when you read under the CHL -16 published 9-2011 Local Governemnt Code 229.001 Firearms; Explosives. Subsection (b)(6) reads;
regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person other than a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchaprter H, Chapter 411, Goverment Code, at a;
(A) public park
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or other governmenal body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or a professional athletic event

No, I know it is simple, but it is still confusing:
The city ordinance states "Any person" and the state version states " other than a person licensed "

so which is it, does the city have the right to tell me I cannot carry concealed, or is the wording just so vague that even the officers are not sure?

Thanks for any guidance!

This law is against State Law we went there on Saturday and discussed with the police officers that we would be carrying AKs and ARs through Seguin in compliance with State Law we have pictures in our Facebook. http://www.opencarrytexas.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How does openly carrying an AR/AK through Seguin clarify the city's concealed handgun verbiage? How does joining Open Carry Texas help resolve what an email to the city attorney took care of?

[gljjt]

OK, I am sure this have been covered a million times before, but here goes:
City of Seguin Ordinace reads as follows:

Sec. 70-73 Possession of firearms prohibited in certain places: exceptions.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a firearm within the city limits of the City of Seguin at:
(1) A public park; or
(2) A public meeting of a governmental body; or
(3) A political rally, political parade, or official meeting; or
(4) A nonfirearms-related school, college, or professional athletic event.
(5) at any place within the city limits where a concealed license holder is permitted to carry a firearm,
a person other than a licensed peace officer shall not carry an unconcealed weapon.
(b) It is an affirmative defense to prosectution for a violtation of this provision that:
(1) the firearm is in or is carried to or from an area designated for use in a lawful hunting, fishing, or other sporting event, and the firearm
is of the type commonly used in the activity; or
(2) The firearm is being carried by a certified peace officer; or
(3) The fiream is being carried by a certified security officer in the performance of his employment.
(Ord. No. 95-7, 3-21-95; Ord. No. 2011-39, 2, 8-2-11

Now,
There are no visible signs posted anywhere within any of the city parks that I have found, or the little league fields which are located within one of the parks.

A visit to the police department today, resulted in a copy of the above ordinance being printed and given to me, a short discussion, a trip by the vary nice lady from administation to the officers area, and the following:
It seems that if it is not specifically posted, even though the ordinance reads as such, if it is not specifically forbidden under state law, then if "should" be okay to carry at the parks under my CHL.

Although, I am still confused, when you read under the CHL -16 published 9-2011 Local Governemnt Code 229.001 Firearms; Explosives. Subsection (b)(6) reads;
regulate the carrying of a firearm by a person other than a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchaprter H, Chapter 411, Goverment Code, at a;
(A) public park
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or other governmenal body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or a professional athletic event

No, I know it is simple, but it is still confusing:
The city ordinance states "Any person" and the state version states " other than a person licensed "

so which is it, does the city have the right to tell me I cannot carry concealed, or is the wording just so vague that even the officers are not sure?

Thanks for any guidance!

This law is against State Law we went there on Saturday and discussed with the police officers that we would be carrying AKs and ARs through Seguin in compliance with State Law we have pictures in our Facebook. http://www.opencarrytexas.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How does openly carrying an AR/AK through Seguin clarify the city's concealed handgun verbiage? How does joining Open Carry Texas help resolve what an email to the city attorney took care of?

Yep. This ^^^^^

[mr1337]

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... LG.229.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sec. 229.001

...

(b) Subsection (a) does not affect the authority a municipality has under another law to:

...

6) regulate the carrying of a firearm or air gun by a person other than a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, at a:
(A) public park;
(B) public meeting of a municipality, county, or other governmental body;
(C) political rally, parade, or official political meeting; or
(D) nonfirearms-related school, college, or professional athletic event;

So basically it says municipalities can't regulate the carrying of firearms (that means any firearms, not just concealed handguns) by CHL holders. That means CHL holders can still open carry a long gun in those areas, and the CHL holder is protected by State preemption law.

[wheelgunner]

Even if they post a sign they don't have legal authority to prohibit CHL carry.