Dangerous Dogs and Use of Deadly Force

[mtnthundr2]

I recently bought a small flashlight that has a 'taser' option as well as the flashlight. It's easy to carry, lightweight and rechargeable, I think I spent about $20 for it at a local gun show. While it's certainly not a quality piece of equipment it sure does a good job of scaring away any dogs that come close to me while I'm out on my daily walk. It sure does make a big noise and gives quite the light show and I haven't found a dog yet that doesn't run from it! I haven't actually made contact with any dog yet because as soon as they get close I give it a quick "ZAP" and the sound itself scares them away. I've only had to ZAP it twice towards two nuisance dogs (left to roam by irresponsible owners) and that's all it took, now all I have to do is SHOW them the flashlight and they head back towards their yards. Of course I have more serious equipment on my person while out walking, but it's nice to have this non-lethal option as my first choice of deterrent to possible problems along the way. This might be an option for the OP or anyone else looking for an alternative to pepper spray or lethal force.

(ps, I love dogs and have had dogs in my life since the day I was born, I have been bitten a few times but am not afraid of them. These two nuisance dogs are mixed breed dogs that are friendly and want to follow me on my walk. One part of my walk is near a busy road and I don't want them following me because I am afraid they will get injured or killed in the road so I scare them back to their yards. This thread has gotten a bit heated with many opinions on using lethal force on dogs, I myself, would find it very difficult ((emotionally)) to kill a dog of any breed. If I HAD to I would, but I would feel bad for the dog and be angry with the owner, because ultimately, it's the owners fault that the dog was put in the position to be killed. IMHO )

[TomV]

For those who wanted to see documentation, is a CDC report acceptable?

http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationals ... eeds-a.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It only focuses on fatalities.

I have a dog. When we adopted him, he was called an American Bull mix. The vet calls him a mastiff mix. We just call him a bull mix. He has issues. No problems with people. Never had him around babies and have no intention of it. He doesn't like other dogs with an agenda. He doesn't like other dogs who act like prey. If another dog is fine with him and all is good with the world, he pretty much ignores them. He does not like rollerbladers or scooters. I have no idea why. He doesn't react to bikes. He is never off leash when outside except the back yard. When I am out for a walk and he is with me, that is what it is. It is my walk. He understands this and walks at my knee the whole time. I think it's funny, the last dog that charged us and nipped me, was a 5lb yippy dog. It escaped unharmed.

[The Annoyed Man]

FYI, your source material is unscientific and incorrect. There is no source info on puppytoob.com, dogsbite.org is a website created as propaganda by one woman that was bitten by a dog, and dognotebook.com is another unscientific site with no source info.

There are a number of scientific studies to the contrary of these points and using these mentioned above as fact is as bad as what Moms Demand Action uses for source material.

Yes, I realized when I posted them that they might not be authoritative. I spent about 5 minutes Googling and could find nothing suitable. I realized that they were not "professional" sites, but that is what I could find in a short time, and due to other matters at hand at the time, that was the amount of time I could give it. If you could provide me with those scientific sources, I would be happy to bookmark them and use them only in the future. I am a dog lover and I'm not interested in propagating misinformation (intentionally or not), and I am comfortable with large breeds with "reputations". I have owned a pit-mix, and we loved her and she us for 16 years. She was a good dog. I've owned a ridgeback (best breed on the planet, IMHO), and have been on friendly terms with dobies and rottweilers. Every pitbull I've ever met has been a friendly and happy-go-lucky kind of doggie. My current dog is a boxer/lab mix, and my son has an 85 lb male boxer. Both are such goofballs that it is hard to believe there are people who are specifically afraid of boxers, but every once in a while, somebody expresses exactly such a fear. I believe that there is no such thing as a "bad" breed.....only stupid and/or bad people who screw up good dogs or are otherwise irresponsible owners.....and only occasionally an individual dog with the equivalent of doggie psychiatric issues.

I did work in a large ER for several years, and saw the occasional dog-bite victim, but my guess is that I probably only saw 1 in 100s, since most probably never required anything beyond slapping a bandaid on it, and the victim never went to an ER. The ones I did see were caused by larger breeds with a reputation, and in a couple of cases, the injuries were fairly significant—as in, requiring plastic surgery to repair a hand or something. But, I never saw someone who had been mauled with multiple injuries over their bodies.

I believe that the entire reason we see stories in the news of people mauled and torn apart by loose dogs, especially in packs, is because the events are SO rare that they are newsworthy. And of course, if it bleeds, it leads, so when one story happens, reporters get out their lemming-powered microscopes and start trying to dig up more stories like it. The stories lead because they appeal to some kind of atavistic terror in our genetic memory of being pursued and torn apart by wild beasts. But in reality, they bear little resemblance to modern reality. Do they happen? Yes. But this is not life on the Serengeti 25,000 years ago, and while dog-bites are fairly common, serious maulings and killings are actually fairly rare.

The quandary for the CHL holder is trying to figure out if the dog rushing at him is doing anything more than a territorial threat display. My personal standard requires discernment, and includes other factors like whether or not I have my granddaughter in my arms, whether I'm walking alone or with my wife, whether I am carrying a walking stick or not, etc., etc. I'm not going to shoot a dog for threatening me. Some "attacks" are actually just threat displays, and nobody needs to die for that reason. It does place me at somewhat of a disadvantage. My self-imposed standard means that I will not shoot until actually attacked. However, if you stop and think about it, that is the same standard that we all operate under with other human beings. I'm not allowed to shoot someone because he told me......from 10-20 feet away......that he was going to whip my butt. He has to actually make moves to start carrying that out before I can shoot him. That's generalized, of course, but that is essentially what is happening when a dog puts on a threat display.......it's just the doggie version of "I'm going to whip your butt" until the moment he actually rushes me. And I am NOT going to shoot a dog that I am fully capable of punting across the street, no matter how vicious its intentions. A Chihuahua simply is unable to do much worse than get ahold of the hem of my jeans and bullyrag it. I can kick a dog that size into next week. I don't have to shoot it.

True Story:
Like Abraham, I have been chased by dogs on my bicycle back in the day, but never bitten. Oddly, in the closest call I ever had, a large dog of undetermined breed (it was midnight at the time on an otherwise deserted street) got his open maw THIS close to my left ankle. The odd part was how I responded. I worked the 3:00pm-11:30pm shift in the ER, and for the first couple of years I worked there, I bicycled to and from work.....a distance of perhaps 5 miles each way. Anyway, when that dog was about to clamp down on my ankle, I reacted so instinctively that it surprised even me. Instead of redoubling my efforts to flee (which were futile anyway at the rate that he was overtaking me), or trying to take a swing at him with my left hand, I turned to face the left side, bent my face down closer to his, bared my own teeth and bellowed a growl back at him really loud right in his face, which kind of stunned him out of attack mode and he broke off the chase. Meanwhile of course, I found myself heading straight for the curb instead of going down the middle of the street, and I had to way over-correct to keep from crashing the bike. But I never did fall off, and I remember kind of replaying in my mind what had happened as I rode the rest of the way home. It was such a primal reaction, and I had never planned out any such thing before. That growl of mine came from somewhere deep in the Limbic System of my brain, and it was pure angry-caveman. It just erupted out of me. This happened sometime around 1980-81, so I was roughly 28 years old. 35 years later, that memory has stayed with me in great detail......so it was significant to me on some level.

But even that dog wasn't a "bad" dog. He was just out at night patrolling what he thought of as his territory, and an interloper on two wheels came blasting through. His owners were bad owners, but he was just a dog being a dog. I actually think that if I had been on foot instead of a bike, it might have played out differently; with him barking at me and making a threat display, but not actually charging me. The faster moving bike triggered his prey response and he gave chase. But at the moment when I growled, hunter became potential prey, and he broke off the attack.

[EEllis]

In response to TAM. Part of the problem is that people seem to think every dog thinks alike and that there is some sort of inclusive behavior one should respond with. The response you had with that dog is indicative of probably the most common one you would get from dogs. You turned yourself from prey into a competitor and even if the dog was sure it could take you they wouldn't want to to be injured so would tend to avoid fighting. It's the same instinct that allowed 40 lb herding dogs to fend off wolves that could obviously outfight them. Some breeds however have been bred for generations to have a greater prey drive and other traits, like what some trainers call hardness, which has a dog responding with primarily aggression to any sign of aggression from an adversary. Police trainers come across this with dog who are difficult to get to release once they bite. Dealing with dogs can be as fully complex as dealing with people and I honestly think most people who think they understand dogs are just fooling themselves. Understanding the influences and possible drives sure, but actually knowing the dog?

[Abraham]

Honestly, it's simple.

Dogs attack - People defend

Dogs don't attack - People don't defend.

Keep your dogs away from those who don't know them.

(dogs are equipped to injure - most especially large dogs.)

One more dog attack story: My very young daughter and I (at the time) jumped into the back of my pickup.

Why?

My new next door neighbor, had a free ranging Pit Bull, who attacked us, and it turned out to be his daughters. He was dog sitting.

I told him, if it happened again, I'd sue him. I didn't know him. I was outraged,

In my own driveway, I had to be put into this position?

The next day, the dog was summarily dismissed from his property and eventually he and I became friends.

Heck, he didn't know his daughter's dog was a maniac... He was gracious. He apologized. I accepted.

This was a true blue Pit Bull. If he'd gotten a hold of my daughter or me, oh man, I can't imagine, because at the time, I didn't carry....

So you, who think "my dog wouldn't bite you", think again.

Your dog won't bite YOU the owner, but not others, you inconsiderate lout!

Dogs that can injure humans (or other innocents) and you let them roam free, think!

Yes, THINK!

[rotor]

Abraham, my daughter had a Jack Russel Terrier, one day it tried to bite her. She had to get rid of that dog. Some dogs will even turn on their owners and my daughter is a dog lover. No predicting some times.

[Cedar Park Dad]

Did I accidentally stumble onto the forum for Mom's Demand Action for Common Sense Dog Control or Everytown for Dog Safety? Lots of unfounded F.U.D. being parlayed around that mimics the misinformation presented by all of the gun control groups most of you ramble on about. Dig those heels in fellas...

Mmm, yes your opinion is deep.

[Cedar Park Dad]

victory,

Some folks think their dogs should roam free and there's another name for them: Inconsiderate Idiots!

Another dog story: I was attacked by 3 dogs on one of my fitness cycle rides. I peppered sprayed them effectively stopping the attack.

Just as I continued to pedal on, two guys in a pickup slowed down and the driver obviously angry, yelled at me "I'd like to see you come to my neighborhood and spray MY DOGS! He was outraged! I said nothing in order to avoid escalating his anger. They drove on.

Apparently, it was O.K. for the dogs to attack me, in this man's opinion, but not for me to defend myself.

This weird attitude baffles me.

What?

I'm supposed to LET THEM harm me?

Evidently, this yahoo thinks dogs SHOULD BE ALLOWED to attack humans. They're the victims, not the human, me.

Inconsiderate Idiot!

BTW, these were large 50/60 lb. mixed breed dogs, not some little cute dogs.

Thats my deal. I have no problem if you've resurrected an entire pack of dire wolves as long as you keep them in your own yard or on a leash. Its when your animal intrudes on me and mine that there's a problem.
This view is remarkably the same as my politics now that I think about it.

[Cedar Park Dad]

Did I accidentally stumble onto the forum for Mom's Demand Action for Common Sense Dog Control or Everytown for Dog Safety?

No. I don't see anybody saying only the police and military need GSD. I don't see anybody saying we need to close the dog show loophole. I don't even see anybody saying there should be a required class and $140 fee for a five year license if you want to walk your dog in public.

I see people saying they will defend themselves. If some stranger comes on my property and points a gun at me, and I defend myself, that doesn't make me antigun.

Great comparison, a dog running at you is the same threat level as a stranger pointing a gun at you.
As gun owners, we are constantly asking the populace to look at all the facts and take the time to understand the way of the gun (not the movie) before passing their own judgement. Just asking for the same courtesy across the board.

Anyway, y'all have a good rest of the weekend.

Strangely if a gun was running at me I'd react the same way.
I don't want to ban your dog. I don't want your dog dying because he tried to attack me and mine. Keep your animal under control, just like you should keep your own firearm under control.

EDIT: Commenting on your opinion is not needed.

[gljjt]

According to the CDC, in 2013, there were 32 deaths by dog bite in the US. 26 involved a Pit Bull or Pit Bull mix.

In a CDC study from 1979-1998, they found reports of 327 people killed by dogs over the 20-year period. Some breed information was available for 238 (73%) of the fatalities. Of 227 incidents with relevant data, 133 (58%) were unrestrained dogs and on the owners' property; 55 (24%) were loose off the owners' property; 38 (17%) were restrained dogs on their owners’ property; and only one (less than 1%) was restrained off the owners' property.

Just a few facts in a sea of opinions (including mine!)

[threoh8]

However, if you stop and think about it, that is the same standard that we all operate under with other human beings. I'm not allowed to shoot someone because he told me......from 10-20 feet away......that he was going to whip my butt.

I think a more apt analogy would be an agitated person 10-20 feet away waving knives, yelling, "I'll cut you, man!" over and over.

How fast can a dog do the knife part of a Tueller drill?

[texas yankee]

I know a lot of people love their pets very much and I don't wish the owners or the animals any harm - as long as the owners keep their pets under control - don't let them leave droppings in my yard, keep them on a leash and under control when you're in a public area (bike path, etc.), and if they bark excessively, shut them up. And please, when I'm out riding my bike and your unrestrained dog starts chasing me, don't tell me "he doesn't bite" - I don't know you or your dog and I don't trust either of you - I've already got my pepper spray out by then - your dog should have been restrained.

When I'm in a public place (not in your yard or on your property), and an unrestrained dog of any breed approaches me, I don't know whether the animal wants to play, whether the animal is threatening me because he perceives that I'm encroaching into his territory, or whether the animal is confronting me because I've looked at the animal the wrong way - I don't have the experience with animals to know their behaviors, and I'm not interested in learning - I shouldn't have to - but I am very interested in protecting myself and my girlfriend and my grandchildren if we're out walking and you don't control your animal appropriately.

I'm not going to run over to your dog to use pepper spray or shoot him if he is outside of the effective range where he can hurt me - I mind my own business - but if your dog approaches me, I'll protect myself immediately and without any hesitation or remorse - preferably with pepper spray, but with my handgun if I have to.

What troubles me in this discussion is the dog owners claim that they understand the "psychological motivations" behind their dog's actions and that they understand the intent of their dog before he takes action - like I said, I don't understand much about dogs, and even if the dog owners do know all about their animals and how they'll react to any situation (I really doubt that this is possible), the thing is, I don't know any of that about your dog - I just wanna protect myself.

Seems to me, that if you keep your dog under control when you are out in public with your animal, and insure that you have a solid fence so the dog stays inside your yard, everyone gets along - if not, and your dog approaches me in any posture that appears to be even close to aggressive, I'm gonna keep myself safe and your dog is going to have a problem.

[Abraham]

texas yankee,

I wholeheartedly concur with your post.

I do think a 'minority' of dog owners believe their animals should be allowed to range free and if they come after you, you're supposed to remain passive.

If you defend yourself, you are in the wrong because their dogs just want to: Play, Simply Loves To Chase, But Won't Hurt You, They Don't Bite, and any number of other excuses that you're supposed to blindly understand and accept.

I'd love to hear from those that think when a human being is simply making their way walking, running, or cycling from point A to B, i.e., minding their own business while out in public, their dogs should be able to get within a space close enough to cause harm, but you have no right to defend yourself.

I know this type of dog owner is out there, because as some of my earlier posts state, I've experienced this bizarre type of thinking exhibited to me from some dog owners after being attacked and me defending myself.

So what is this type thinking base on?

Dogs are more important that human beings?

Blind to the fear a large, charging fanged carnivore can bring about to a person minding their own business?

Or, enjoy seeing the fear their dog inspires by terrifying human beings?

What say you?

[texas yankee]

It might be interesting to understand the mind set of pet owners who let their dogs run free when it's explicitly not permitted by law, or common sense, but their mind set doesn't matter - the issue is that they have made a choice to ignore the law (or common sense) and sometimes that behavior has negative consequences.

Our community's elected leadership decided to invest a lot of tax dollars to build a beautiful concrete walking \ riding \ skating path through a greenbelt area along a creek - it's easily accessible to many residential neighborhoods, with clearly posted signage about dogs needing to be on a leash at all times, and the responsibility of pet owners to pick up after their pets - yet there are a lot of dogs of all breeds and sizes running loose, with numerous dog droppings on the side of the pathway as well as on the pathway - maybe people are just lazy, or they can't read, or they don't care - again, their mindset doesn't matter to me - I report the problem to our Animal Services department, and they do their best to monitor the problem and enforce the ordinances as best they can - but they can't be everywhere, so I have to use common sense and protect myself as best I can - I've always carried pepper spray, and lately, as I've noticed more and bigger dogs running loose, and irresponsible pet owners, I have started to carry my Glock 26 when we're out walking or biking.

Believe me when I say I'm very glad that I haven't had to use either - but I would if I had to.

My real worry is about how the dog's owner would react if their dog came at me aggressively and I had to pepper spray or shoot their dog.

[Abraham]

texas yankee,

Consider buying some Sudecon Decontamination Wipes and take them with you where ever you may come into contact with an attacking dog and get some of the spray on yourself or someone you care about. The wipes are very efficient at pain reduction. If you get spray in your eyes you can squeeze out some drops directly into your eyes and the pain will go away.

They're available at Defensive Devices for $1.49 or so.

Also, as I have mucho experience fending off attacking dogs with pepper spray while cycling, never spray above eye level or into the wind, for obvious reasons...

Also, an effective technique if the dog/dogs are attacking from the rear, don't turn around to spray if you're cycling. You have a great chance of crashing. Simply hold the can upside, while continuing to look ahead, press the trigger and rapidly wave it back and forth behind your back. (like the mark of Zorro)

I've actually experienced greater accuracy with effective spraying using this technique vs. spraying directly at them.

Also, if you use a stream style spray and have a direct ahead shot, aim just above the dogs head, again using the Zorro waving method rather a single stream. If you aim directly at the eyes or nose the spray will generally go low and miss.