Dangerous Dogs and Use of Deadly Force

[karder]

Pitbulls are not bad dogs. "Pitbull" is a broad term associated with several terrier breeds. The vast majority of these terriers, and I mean the huge majority are very sweet dogs. A small percentage of them fall into the hands of evil people who abuse them and turn them into fighters. Those dogs are not representative of these breeds as a whole. If I ever shoot a dog it will because I believe I have no other viable choice...the same goes for if I ever shoot a person. Please don't allow bad press to create undo fear or bias against a group of dogs that just don't deserve it. A bad owner can turn any dog into a bad animal.

[jnichols2]

99% of the dogs I encounter while walking my little Yorkie are not dangerous to me or to her.

But, just as some people are truly dangerous, some dogs are the same.

My yorkie was attacked by a pit bull last year. I managed to pick her up before he got her, but then, he attacked me.
All I had was my bare hands at the time, but I managed to back him down.
I've been around dogs all my 67 years, and pretty much understand what scares them.
Besides that, he could instinctively tell that I meant him harm.

I go armed now. I have no intention of letting a dog harm me or my Yorkie.
My first approach is to find out if the dog really is a danger. If so, I'll try pepper spray.
If actually needed, I'll use my gun or knife. But only if really necessary.

I agree that some people see any god that approaches as dangerous.
A 1 year old golden Lab barks and runs to us at full speed every time she sees my Yorkie.
Actually, she does present a danger to my Yorkie due to being clumsy.
All I have to do is get in front and make sure she hits me, not the little Yorkie. Then she settles down.

But the pit bull that attacked us is truly a dangerous animal. I would be foolish to hesitate.
Now the pit bull we met at the vet's last week.... I think he wanted to come home with us.

[katmandu]

I'm a dog-lover too, and would hate to hurt one in any way, even accidentally.

Last summer, three neighborhood kids were playing football in my yard, as it was bigger than any of their yards for that. I think at the time I was pulling up a few weeds or doing some other trivial yard work, and I was armed with a revolver in my pocket. For safety reasons I don't carry it if I'm actually out playing football too, but that day I wasn't playing, so had it with me.

Across the street someone pulled up in a pickup to visit the people who lived there. The driver got out, and left the pickup door open. I didn't think much of it, but after a few seconds I saw a large dog jump out of the cab and it started running straight over to my yard where all the activity was. All I saw at first was that a large dog that I didn't know anything about was running straight over to where those kids were playing in my yard. As it got closer I saw that it was a pit bull, but it didn't really matter at the time. We have quite a few strays that walk down the street, but most try to avoid being around people. So this dog's behavior was out of the ordinary. He wasn't wagging his tail, or standing looking on curiously, he jumped out of the cab and started running straight over to my yard at a fairly quick speed.

About this time the kids saw it too, and I told them to get back towards the other side of my front yard, away from the direction the dog was running, and if they could to make their way to my porch or even inside if the dog kept coming. I positioned myself well away from them, and slightly to the side and between them and the dog. At the same time I put my hand on the pistol grip, and started checking out the available backdrop in case I felt I had to fire. That's the closest I've come to feeling threatened to the point of drawing and firing since I've had my CHL, and I certainly didn't want to have to do that. But I would have if necessary, because I wasn't going to wait to find out whether the dog was aggressive by watching him break one of those kids' arms or tear their face off with his bite.

I don't know if I actually pulled the revolver partially out of my pocket, but I think I must have. The driver had gone around to knock on the door of the neighbor's house, but must have realized something was happening. He came back around and started yelling "Please, he only wants to play, please". So I think he must have either seen my gun partially, or realized my hand was on it in my pocket. He called the dog sharply a couple of times, and luckily it stopped and turned back toward the driver.

In the aftermath, my opinion was that the dog probably really did just want to play, based on his behavior after the owner called him back. I also knew that just because they want to play one minute doesn't mean they won't change their behavior and attack someone the next, and I wasn't going to find out. Pit bull or not, playing or not, friendly or not, if it had continued running towards us like it was, I would have fired. Whatever else, that dog's irresponsible owner came close to getting his dog shot that day.

There was no time to observe and evaluate the dog or try to take control of it, nor was there time to get those kids and myself out of possible harms way on the porch or in the house. I can't imagine that anyone here wouldn't have done the same under those circumstances. I know there's not a lot of detail, but if there was a better way I could have handled it I'd sure like to know what it was.

[EEllis]

One of my big issues with pits is that some of them just don't exhibit the normal warning signs before they attack and once they get a lock on someone they can be amazingly hard to get off. I get that many breeds are called pits now days and with the getto dog breeding it gets even more complicated but that to me just says that people who go on about pits being such a great breed are less than objective.

[SRVVR]

Did I accidentally stumble onto the forum for Mom's Demand Action for Common Sense Dog Control or Everytown for Dog Safety? Lots of unfounded F.U.D. being parlayed around that mimics the misinformation presented by all of the gun control groups most of you ramble on about. Dig those heels in fellas...

[Keith B]

Pit bulls are no more prone to attack than any other dog breed. I have an 11 pound terrier that resource guards and will growl, snarl and snap/bite if she is guarding her bed or another item. The only dog that has ever actually bitten me was a chihuahua.

My father in law has a pit that was dumped out by his deer hunting cabin. The dog was a pup and was emaciated. He took the dog home, named him 'Bones' and nursed him back to health. He is one of the most gentle and best mannered dogs you could ever want. Remember the Little Rascals and their dog Petey? He was a pit. Nobody thought he was a scary mean dog and he was around the kids on the set.

The bad rap pits have gotten is that they have been used as fighting dogs because of their extremely powerful jaws and body strength. Unlike a dog with less jaw strength if they bite, the pressure exerted is much stronger and will do more damage. If you train them to be mean and want to fight or attack, then they will. A dachshund can be trained to be mean and attack too, but unless you are laying on the ground and let them chew on you for awhile, they are not gonna do much damage.

Bottom line, if a dog is truly attacking, and it is a large enough dog to do serious injury to the child or person, then you would have justification to defend yourself or another. A standard poodle is gonna get shot if it decides to attack. A miniature poodle is gonna a punted down the road.

[victory]

Did I accidentally stumble onto the forum for Mom's Demand Action for Common Sense Dog Control or Everytown for Dog Safety?

No. I don't see anybody saying only the police and military need GSD. I don't see anybody saying we need to close the dog show loophole. I don't even see anybody saying there should be a required class and $140 fee for a five year license if you want to walk your dog in public.

I see people saying they will defend themselves. If some stranger comes on my property and points a gun at me, and I defend myself, that doesn't make me antigun.

[Abraham]

victory,

Some folks think their dogs should roam free and there's another name for them: Inconsiderate Idiots!

Another dog story: I was attacked by 3 dogs on one of my fitness cycle rides. I peppered sprayed them effectively stopping the attack.

Just as I continued to pedal on, two guys in a pickup slowed down and the driver obviously angry, yelled at me "I'd like to see you come to my neighborhood and spray MY DOGS! He was outraged! I said nothing in order to avoid escalating his anger. They drove on.

Apparently, it was O.K. for the dogs to attack me, in this man's opinion, but not for me to defend myself.

This weird attitude baffles me.

What?

I'm supposed to LET THEM harm me?

Evidently, this yahoo thinks dogs SHOULD BE ALLOWED to attack humans. They're the victims, not the human, me.

Inconsiderate Idiot!

BTW, these were large 50/60 lb. mixed breed dogs, not some little cute dogs.

[chasfm11]

victory,

Some folks think their dogs should roam free and there's another name for them: Inconsiderate Idiots!

Another dog story: I was attacked by 3 dogs on one of my fitness cycle rides. I peppered sprayed them effectively stopping the attack.

Just as I continued to pedal on, two guys in a pickup slowed down and the driver obviously angry, yelled at me "I'd like to see you come to my neighborhood and spray MY DOGS! He was outraged! I said nothing in order to avoid escalating his anger. They drove on.

Apparently, it was O.K. for the dogs to attack me, in this man's opinion, but not for me to defend myself.

This weird attitude baffles me.

What?

I'm supposed to LET THEM harm me?

Evidently, this yahoo thinks dogs SHOULD BE ALLOWED to attack humans. They're the victims, not the human, me.

Inconsiderate Idiot!

BTW, these were large 50/60 lb. mixed breed dogs, not some little cute dogs.

I'm also a bike rider and get that same attitude from unleashed dog owners all the time. My standard defense when I see an aggressive dog is to dismount and place the bike between us, shifting the bike's position as the dog attempts to circle me. I've had owners yelling, unheeded, at the dog to stop the attack and then tell me that their dogs just wanted to play. I usually turn the back of my right calf to them and explain the bite scars from another "playful" dog that I had encountered. That owner, as the dog was drawing blood from me, told me that his 60+ lb Doberman didn't bite.

I've always expected that if I have to pepper spray a dog, I might end up pepper spraying the owner, too. I've learned never to respond to any of them verbally. All they get from me is a glare. I can normally out-ride any dog under about 30lbs. Anything bigger, I don't even try. I've paced one Blue Healer that always "chases" me inside his fence. At 20mph on my speedo, he is still pulling away from me.

[Abraham]

Another dog attack story.

As I'm pedaling along, I look to my left as I heard a dog furiously barking.

The apparent owner was a woman working in her garden.

As soon as the woman spotted me pedaling my guts out to get away she stood up, placed both hands on her hips and started laughing.

Then she saw me rip my pepper spray canister off my belt and hose her dog just he was about to catch me. He immediately stopped attacking and started scraping his eyes on the asphalt.

From a hearty good laugh at my expense she shouted every cuss word she could think of after I hosed her dog.

I could see her and her dog in my bar end mirror as I went on my way.

Next time I passed her house she held onto her dog's collar and said not a word.

No problem from then on.

[EEllis]

Pit bulls are no more prone to attack than any other dog breed.

Several things wrong with that. One, as mentioned, pits are several different breeds and a loose grouping of crossbred dogs so universal statements are obviously lacking. Two pit bulls are bred for fighting dogs not people. Historically aggressiveness towards handlers would get a dog culled but violence towards other dogs and animals were prized. Pits may not have a above average rate of attacks on humans but they do have an increased rate of attacks on other animals . Then you also have the fact that they can cause increased damage over other dogs the same size and combine that with atypical behavior patterns toward things they do attack, which makes it harder to tell when a pit might be aggressive. Well, concern about pits is only common sense. Then people say that "Their" pit, which may only be fractionally pit at all or not even any pit just having some of the same features that pits have, is a peaceful placid animal. So?

[SRVVR]

Did I accidentally stumble onto the forum for Mom's Demand Action for Common Sense Dog Control or Everytown for Dog Safety?

No. I don't see anybody saying only the police and military need GSD. I don't see anybody saying we need to close the dog show loophole. I don't even see anybody saying there should be a required class and $140 fee for a five year license if you want to walk your dog in public.

I see people saying they will defend themselves. If some stranger comes on my property and points a gun at me, and I defend myself, that doesn't make me antigun.

Great comparison, a dog running at you is the same threat level as a stranger pointing a gun at you.

My point about MDA and Everytown still stands by the fact that I am seeing several overreactions by uninformed individuals. I have read thousands of posts from members here about how those that are anti-gun do not spend the time to study or understand what it is they are so passionately against, yet in this one thread, I am seeing the exact same generalized comments against dog breeds from people that would crucify someone for saying the following against guns:

If your pit is off a leash and comes near me I'd empty a mag in it and not give it another thought.

If your dog is loose, by its very nature its a threat to everything around it.

A loose pit bull, which is what this referred to, most definitely is.

Those don't sound familiar at all... wait:
http://bearingarms.com/virginia-open-ca ... trol-loon/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/3 ... -c-w-cooke" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

10 most dangerous breeds, based on biting statistics: http://puppytoob.com/dog-breeds/the-10- ... tistics/2/

10. St Bernards
9. Great Dane
8. Chow Chow
7. Doberman Pinscher
6. Malamute
5. Wolf-Dog Hybrid
4. Husky
3. German Shepherd
2. Rottweiler
1. Pit Bull

Other links:
http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statis ... istics.php
http://www.dognotebook.com/15-dangerous ... ir-owners/

On the other hand, I have heard that Chihuahuas and Labs bite more people than any other breed, it's just that Chihuahuas never perform fatal attacks, and the number of bites is probably correlational with the popularity of the breed.

The thing is, I've only ever been bitten a few times in my life. The one that required medical attention was a bite to my hand when I was a small child. The dog was a German Shepherd. But I've been bitten a number of times by lapdogs of nearly every breed over the years. "Nipped" would be a more accurate word.

Whether intentional or not, Everytown was caught using false information:

http://www.politifact.com/personalities ... rely-true/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/06 ... -he-found/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's some additional information around one of the sources:

http://bslnews.org/2012/01/24/the-real- ... n-exposed/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.teampitafull.org/DogsBite.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Then we have some comments that are based on myths and half-truths, which are subsequently perpetuated when no one checks their facts when they read or hear something.

One of my big issues with pits is that some of them just don't exhibit the normal warning signs before they attack and once they get a lock on someone they can be amazingly hard to get off. I get that many breeds are called pits now days and with the getto dog breeding it gets even more complicated but that to me just says that people who go on about pits being such a great breed are less than objective.

The bad rap pits have gotten is that they have been used as fighting dogs because of their extremely powerful jaws and body strength. Unlike a dog with less jaw strength if they bite, the pressure exerted is much stronger and will do more damage. If you train them to be mean and want to fight or attack, then they will. A dachshund can be trained to be mean and attack too, but unless you are laying on the ground and let them chew on you for awhile, they are not gonna do much damage.

Pit bulls are no more prone to attack than any other dog breed.

Several things wrong with that. One, as mentioned, pits are several different breeds and a loose grouping of crossbred dogs so universal statements are obviously lacking. Two pit bulls are bred for fighting dogs not people. Historically aggressiveness towards handlers would get a dog culled but violence towards other dogs and animals were prized. Pits may not have a above average rate of attacks on humans but they do have an increased rate of attacks on other animals . Then you also have the fact that they can cause increased damage over other dogs the same size and combine that with atypical behavior patterns toward things they do attack, which makes it harder to tell when a pit might be aggressive. Well, concern about pits is only common sense. Then people say that "Their" pit, which may only be fractionally pit at all or not even any pit just having some of the same features that pits have, is a peaceful placid animal. So?

http://www.realpitbull.com/myths.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now, slightly off the anti-gun track, though I could point it back to how they attack a sporting rifle as a machine gun or military style weapon, here is a little game you can play trying to identify the Pit Bull: http://www.pickthepit.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not trying to ruffle any feathers, okay, maybe just a little, but it has been fun reading posts that go on about dangerous breeds and how they wouldn't think twice about putting down one they perceived to be a threat. I am not discounting the 1st person reports that dog attacks happen, but there are exponentially less fatal dog attacks against humans than fatal attacks by humans against humans. According to the NCRC, there were 33 fatal dog attacks in 2010 (most recent report I could fine on short notice) and 14,748 murders that same year, based on the FBI's statistics. That equates to fatal dog attack rate of 0.042 per 100,000 dogs and a murder rate of 4.8 per 100,000 humans, using the 2010 population of both species. I don't know about you, but I will trust any dog over any human any day, except a wiener dog...

As gun owners, we are constantly asking the populace to look at all the facts and take the time to understand the way of the gun (not the movie) before passing their own judgement. Just asking for the same courtesy across the board.

Anyway, y'all have a good rest of the weekend.

[hillfighter]

Great comparison, a dog running at you is the same threat level as a stranger pointing a gun at you.

A strange dog charging at someone is a threat, same as a strange person aiming a gun at them.

Out in the country, feral dogs are a big problem. I'm not required to wait to see if the intruding carnivore just wants to play with the chickens.

[Abraham]

I have no quarrel with dog breeds.

I have a quarrel with large, attacking dogs, irrespective of breed.

It's really quite simple.

Dog owners: Keep your dog under control.

Free ranging dogs don't have priority over human beings innocently going about their business. Though, I think "some" dog owners think otherwise...

If your dog attacks me, I'm going to defend myself.

Many times, while out cycling, dogs come after me and I can tell some are simply curious. I don't spray them.

When they come snarling, emitting staccato, angry barks and snapping at me and try to bite me I have no obligation to NOT defend myself.

At this point in my experience, some dog owners think their dogs have a RIGHT to attack you while you're simply passing by on the street, and you should simply lay down and let them chew, bite, chomp you, because you shouldn't be in their territory.

Guess what?

I'll defend myself from your dog attacking me.

[EEllis]

My point about MDA and Everytown still stands by the fact that I am seeing several overreactions by uninformed individuals. I have read thousands of posts from members here about how those that are anti-gun do not spend the time to study or understand what it is they are so passionately against, yet in this one thread, I am seeing the exact same generalized comments against dog breeds from people that would crucify someone for saying the following against guns:

First unless the members who you are quoting are one of the "Thousands" posting then it means squat and even if they were they are not calling for banning dogs just that a dog loose is a danger. When guns run loose by their own accord then we will have some parity in statement. Now your example misses.

Then we have some comments that are based on myths and half-truths, which are subsequently perpetuated when no one checks their facts when they read or hear something.

One of my big issues with pits is that some of them just don't exhibit the normal warning signs before they attack and once they get a lock on someone they can be amazingly hard to get off. I get that many breeds are called pits now days and with the getto dog breeding it gets even more complicated but that to me just says that people who go on about pits being such a great breed are less than objective.

The bad rap pits have gotten is that they have been used as fighting dogs because of their extremely powerful jaws and body strength. Unlike a dog with less jaw strength if they bite, the pressure exerted is much stronger and will do more damage. If you train them to be mean and want to fight or attack, then they will. A dachshund can be trained to be mean and attack too, but unless you are laying on the ground and let them chew on you for awhile, they are not gonna do much damage.

Pit bulls are no more prone to attack than any other dog breed.

Several things wrong with that. One, as mentioned, pits are several different breeds and a loose grouping of crossbred dogs so universal statements are obviously lacking. Two pit bulls are bred for fighting dogs not people. Historically aggressiveness towards handlers would get a dog culled but violence towards other dogs and animals were prized. Pits may not have a above average rate of attacks on humans but they do have an increased rate of attacks on other animals . Then you also have the fact that they can cause increased damage over other dogs the same size and combine that with atypical behavior patterns toward things they do attack, which makes it harder to tell when a pit might be aggressive. Well, concern about pits is only common sense. Then people say that "Their" pit, which may only be fractionally pit at all or not even any pit just having some of the same features that pits have, is a peaceful placid animal. So?

http://www.realpitbull.com/myths.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The only thing wrong with my statement is that I said "lock" when I could of said bite but the rest is accurate and I stand behind as correct. Your link contradicted nothing I said at all.