Always Carry

[Jumping Frog]

Legal teams from the ACLU to Defense lawyers to even DA's will tell you that there is legal precedent from other states where a person lawfully defended themselves on paper but were charged because they picked one day to carry over others and ended up using their weapon. Now, we all know that most will not even use their weapon even when they should... however the prosecution doesn't care. They will do their best to try and charge and convict you no matter what the situation is.

Meh. I throw the baloney flag on this one.

I am well aware of instances of prosecutorial fixation on trying to charge a legitimate DGU, with political viewpoints infecting the justice system. Harold Fish being just one example.

However, I do not believe choosing to carry some days and not others has been a commonly occurring factor resulting in charges for shootings that are otherwise lawful. If you want to continue to assert this, I'd like to see data.

Also, I do not agree a blanket statement that "They (prosecutors) will do their best to try and charge and convict you no matter what the situation is" is accurate. I am well aware of many, many DGU's where the prosecutor has been supportive of the law-abiding citizen. As I write this, I am reminded of one county prosecutor, Joe Deters, whose money quote in the paper was, "Our office believes that a person who makes the decision to rob another person has given up the right to not get shot."

[Lisa]

Legal teams from the ACLU to Defense lawyers to even DA's will tell you that there is legal precedent from other states where a person lawfully defended themselves on paper but were charged because they picked one day to carry over others and ended up using their weapon.

Please cite at least one good shoot that turned bad in court solely because the victim only carried occasionally.

[MechAg94]

Everyone should be aware of the potential legal hassles in their area and prepare accordingly.

[ripnbst]

I would like to use your line of I don't do interviews if it happens again. Funny stuff.

That was my comment here, but that isn't how I actually handle it.

When someone is heading my way, I put my left hand up in a "STOP" gesture, and say "No thanks". If I don't get that started before they reach 30 feet, I'll mentally chide myself afterwards in situational awareness.

If they take another step or two, I'll re-emphasize the stop gesture and state more emphatically, "STOP RIGHT THERE, I said I am not interested".

If they keep coming after that, I conclude they do not have benign intent. Now I am yelling "STOP RIGHT THERE, DO NOT COME ANY CLOSER" while I am reaching for my gun.

I haven't had to actually draw (yet). Hope I never have to, but am prepared should that time come.

This type of response sounds to me like it's a little hasty to escalate things in a grocery store parking lot. If I'm suspicious I'll get my hand on my grip with finger along slide at roughly ten feet, even an inkling of continued forward motion and they are staring at the muzzle a half second later. Another step or two from 30 feet is about 25+/- feet for an average gait. At that distance you should definitely still be saying no thanks not interested but not yelling commands IMO. To each their own and we all have different levels of comfort. You make your decisions and I make mine, I respect your decision but it's not the one for me in our litigious culture. 25 feet is "too soon". Unless a weapon is visible it would be hard to articulate a fear for your life in a place you are both legally allowed to be at 25 feet. 10 feet is just outside arms reach and many people have lost their life as the result of another's bare hands, at this point I would feel "imminently threatened" and also believe that a "reasonable person" would be as well.

I'm not one to begin the draw stroke early to allow more forward movement to occur. If I'm beginning my draw I've already made the decision to do it (draw), the only thing happening between the moment I've made the decision and clearing kydex is something that changes my mind. I don't have a habit of practicing putting my hand on my gun and not drawing. If I've got my hand on my gun I plan to make it visible to my counterpart real soon.

I'm not LEO and don't need to place my hand on my gun for intimidation purposes. Not condemning that action when taken by LEO, but I don't have the same duties/responsibilities they do as a civilian. I don't feel I should have to intimidate someone into stopping what they intend to do. If I ask them to stop nicely, then neutrally, and then not nicely and they don't stop then they've already made their mind subsequently making mine for me. I don't play games.

[ripnbst]

So that we can all be informed, where exactly did this occur?

[Jumping Frog]

This type of response sounds to me like it's a little hasty to escalate things in a grocery store parking lot. If I'm suspicious I'll get my hand on my grip with finger along slide at roughly ten feet,

If you let me get 10 feet away with a knife hidden in my hand, I can gut you from groin to sternum and slice your throat before you have finished drawing your handgun. That is WAY too close.

Tueller was an optimist.

[ripnbst]

This type of response sounds to me like it's a little hasty to escalate things in a grocery store parking lot. If I'm suspicious I'll get my hand on my grip with finger along slide at roughly ten feet,

If you let me get 10 feet away with a knife hidden in my hand, I can gut you from groin to sternum and slice your throat before you have finished drawing your handgun. That is WAY too close.

Tueller was an optimist.

That sounds like a challenge I'm willing to accept. Airsoft vs. plastic knife of course. A hit on target before contact equates to a win for me. I am not making the statement I can halt your attack form ten feet. Historically there is proof you'd have a heck of a time stopping an attacker at 5x that distance with only a handgun. Drugs and adrenaline and all that.

[Jumping Frog]

This type of response sounds to me like it's a little hasty to escalate things in a grocery store parking lot. If I'm suspicious I'll get my hand on my grip with finger along slide at roughly ten feet,

If you let me get 10 feet away with a knife hidden in my hand, I can gut you from groin to sternum and slice your throat before you have finished drawing your handgun. That is WAY too close.

Tueller was an optimist.

That sounds like a challenge I'm willing to accept. Airsoft vs. plastic knife of course. A hit on target before contact equates to a win for me. I am not making the statement I can halt your attack form ten feet. Historically there is proof you'd have a heck of a time stopping an attacker at 5x that distance with only a handgun. Drugs and adrenaline and all that.

I don't think you appreciate close quarters combat and the science behind how action beats reaction. It isn't about you accepting a "challenge" with airsoft and rubber knives for an anecdotal case of one. Even if you end up shooting an attacker, getting sliced to ribbons while doing so counts as a loss.

That said, there are already many scientific use of force studies that have proven action beats reaction and at 10 feet you'd have no chance of reaction before being sliced and diced. Spend some time browsing the articles on reaction time at the Force Science Institute.

Another example of action beating reaction is illustrative: you can stand there pointing a gun directly at someone with your finger on the trigger and ready to fire. It is proven science that an average bad guy can pull a gun from his waistband and shoot you before you can react to what he is doing and fire. Every time. Of course, you will eventually react and likely shoot the bad guy too, but you are still dealing with getting shot!

Here are a couple of links to different posts that link some of these studies.

viewtopic.php?f=94&t=71835&p=899016#p899016" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=68724&p=853127#p853127" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


That is why I start challenging someone who sets off the internal gong at 30 feet or more.

[srothstein]

This type of response sounds to me like it's a little hasty to escalate things in a grocery store parking lot. If I'm suspicious I'll get my hand on my grip with finger along slide at roughly ten feet,

If you let me get 10 feet away with a knife hidden in my hand, I can gut you from groin to sternum and slice your throat before you have finished drawing your handgun. That is WAY too close.

Tueller was an optimist.

I think Tueller was not really an optimist because most of what is attributed to him is not accurate. He has written several times that he never said that 21 feet was a rule and he really hates the term. He was saying the same thing as you, always leave adequate response time and know it will vary based on the exact situation and people involved.

[mr1337]

This type of response sounds to me like it's a little hasty to escalate things in a grocery store parking lot. If I'm suspicious I'll get my hand on my grip with finger along slide at roughly ten feet,

If you let me get 10 feet away with a knife hidden in my hand, I can gut you from groin to sternum and slice your throat before you have finished drawing your handgun. That is WAY too close.

Tueller was an optimist.

That sounds like a challenge I'm willing to accept. Airsoft vs. plastic knife of course. A hit on target before contact equates to a win for me. I am not making the statement I can halt your attack form ten feet. Historically there is proof you'd have a heck of a time stopping an attacker at 5x that distance with only a handgun. Drugs and adrenaline and all that.

No need. Mythbusters already did it.

[video][/video]

Also shows that you should keep one chambered.

[ripnbst]

I will yield to your scientific evidence and say that you are right and I learned something today. 30 feet is the probable minimum I need to start telling myself to begin the serious stages of escalation, if the alarm starts going off of course.

However, I'd like to point out that in the mythbusters video Adam is drawing and pushing to full extension (as well as racking the slide it appeared) every time he draws. I carry one in the chamber and have trained to draw, rotate muzzle towards target, come to center, and then press out. At distances of less than 20 feet I can get hits on man sized targets with combat accuracy(dinner plate sized groups) even when pushing the speed. For the exact reason that once the barrel is on target you are able to fire if needed and make hits(effectiveness/accuracy increasing as you come to full extension of course). Further, with someone coming at me like that I am going for pelvic hits to shatter the necessary support structure that enables his continued forward movement. I don't care how drugged up or determined you are, hard to run with your pelvis in pieces, because physics.

[Smokey613]

On the subject of bringing a knife to a gunfight. During one of several certification training sessions to obtain my expandable baton instructor certificate, the instructor was a former Captain of the South Africa special forces. Using non lethal training aids, that "old man" demonstrated on several occasions how he could take you out using only a knife even when you were armed with a firearm whether it was in your holster or in your hand. His speed and tactics were something to behold. One can only imagine him in his prime. it gave a new perspective on the dangers of a knife in the hands of someone who knows how to use one and to never be complacent or over confident simply because you have a gun. He also preached situational awareness constantly. He was a very unassuming man and one that earned a high level of respect from all that attended his class.