Just Browsing?

[Superman]

Two answers, one for the browsing question, one for the online side of the question.

First: I go into stores to browse all the time, and it has nothing to do with the internet. I was browsing before I had ever heard of the internet. I go into home depot to see if they have anything I can adapt to projects I am working on, to outdoor stores to see camping gear that might workfor upcoming trips, and so on. I definitely go to gun stores to see if they have anything I "absolutely need" ;). If approached by a store employee I will typically say, "Just browsing," which isn't code for, "I'm looking here but will buy online," but rather, "I don't need personal service at this time." When I find an item I am interested in I start making decisions about when and how to buy. At that point the store is definitely in the running to make a sale, but the sale was never guaranteed and I have no obligation to buy or buy from that store. I will find the best overall deal (taking into account cost, time, guarantees, and so on). I may go home to think about it and come back a week later to buy. I may find I can buy it online for a dramatically better price and buy that way. I think that is not only ethical, but good for the store.

Second answer: Regarding the specific case of seeing something online and wanting to touch/feel it before buying. I think this is now called "showrooming" rather than browsing. I think showrooming is to the merchan's benefit because people who become interested in a gun (any product) visit the merchant's store. If Joe Internet sees a 642 (or whatever) online, reads reviews, checks the prices on someonlinegunstore.com, there are two ways it can go from there:

1) They buy the gun right then and there, counting on return policies or the ability to sell to cover disappointments. The deal is done and local retailers lost the sale without ever knowing it was being considered. Some kitchen table FFL will get $20 and that's that.

2) Joe wants to touch and feel so he heads for a local shop. The shop has a prospect walk through their door interested in a particular gun and intending to buy. It is now up to the sales person to convince Joe that buying from that shop is better in some way than buying online...an opportunity the shop didn't have before.

Possibility #2 is something businesses pay for. They pay real money to get qualified customers in the door. Advertising, store decore, and so on...none of which was needed to get Joe to come in. I say it is not only ethical of Joe to visit a local retailer to touch/feel, but it is a positive benefit to the retailer and can be viewed as free money being given to the store. It is up to the store to recognize the opportunity and close the sale. If the store can't close it is just sour grapes and an indication of poor thinking to blame online retailers for their own missed opportunity.

That is my take anyway. :)

[SQLGeek]

Two answers, one for the browsing question, one for the online side of the question.

First: I go into stores to browse all the time, and it has nothing to do with the internet. I was browsing before I had ever heard of the internet. I go into home depot to see if they have anything I can adapt to projects I am working on, to outdoor stores to see camping gear that might workfor upcoming trips, and so on. I definitely go to gun stores to see if they have anything I "absolutely need" ;). If approached by a store employee I will typically say, "Just browsing," which isn't code for, "I'm looking here but will buy online," but rather, "I don't need personal service at this time." When I find an item I am interested in I start making decisions about when and how to buy. At that point the store is definitely in the running to make a sale, but the sale was never guaranteed and I have no obligation to buy or buy from that store. I will find the best overall deal (taking into account cost, time, guarantees, and so on). I may go home to think about it and come back a week later to buy. I may find I can buy it online for a dramatically better price and buy that way. I think that is not only ethical, but good for the store.

Second answer: Regarding the specific case of seeing something online and wanting to touch/feel it before buying. I think this is now called "showrooming" rather than browsing. I think showrooming is to the merchan's benefit because people who become interested in a gun (any product) visit the merchant's store. If Joe Internet sees a 642 (or whatever) online, reads reviews, checks the prices on someonlinegunstore.com, there are two ways it can go from there:

1) They buy the gun right then and there, counting on return policies or the ability to sell to cover disappointments. The deal is done and local retailers lost the sale without ever knowing it was being considered. Some kitchen table FFL will get $20 and that's that.

2) Joe wants to touch and feel so he heads for a local shop. The shop has a prospect walk through their door interested in a particular gun and intending to buy. It is now up to the sales person to convince Joe that buying from that shop is better in some way than buying online...an opportunity the shop didn't have before.

Possibility #2 is something businesses pay for. They pay real money to get qualified customers in the door. Advertising, store decore, and so on...none of which was needed to get Joe to come in. I say it is not only ethical of Joe to visit a local retailer to touch/feel, but it is a positive benefit to the retailer and can be viewed as free money being given to the store. It is up to the store to recognize the opportunity and close the sale. If the store can't close it is just sour grapes and an indication of poor thinking to blame online retailers for their own missed opportunity.

That is my take anyway. :)

That is a good breakdown. One thing I've noticed, and I touched on this in my other post in this thread, is that so often I've seemed to encounter quite a few local gun shops who don't seem interested in trying to want to make a sale. They have little knowledge about their products and generally don't seem to want to go to any length to actually convince me to buy the product. I've even had one guy at a shop treat me as an annoyance when asking to look at guns and I was ready to buy that day.I'm not sure if it was because the salesman was an older guy and would rather chew the fat with customers his age or what but it left me with a really sour taste in my mouth and I haven't been back to that store since.

In summary, the only value I really see out of local gun shops is getting to get something that day, which I rarely need to do and getting a chance to see and hold a gun in person. I've purchased several guns online without having seen them in person. With an FFL very close to my home, it makes the process cheaper and quite easier.

On that note, how much more am I expected to pay to a local gun shop to be fair?

[newTexan]

On that note, how much more am I expected to pay to a local gun shop to be fair?

Well this has become quite an interesting discussion; I'm glad I asked the original question.

I want to take a stab at the "how much more" question from my own limited perspective. I will admit that many gun stores leave me cold. The sales people don't care, don't know, and don't care to know. They don't do a thing to make me want to give them my money, and thus to earn it they have to really win big on price.

On the other hand, I know of two gun stores where I've had nothing but wonderful experiences. Every sales person has been neighborly. Whether I'm just checking out cleaning supplies or wanted to look at something under glass, they were equally friendly. That counts a lot. I want them to be a success. I would personally pay a little extra for the same product because I see their experience as additional value. How much more? I don't know that there's a hard number for me, but I will definitely go over the minimum price.

[gljjt]

I have never bought a gun online because I have never found what I wanted cheaper than a local purchase. Not saying it can't be done but for my main line purchases, Glock/AR/.38-.357 revolver, I couldn't get it cheaper than Academy and Sportsmans Warehouse (when they were still here). With that said, I see the following advantages/disadvantages for local purchase at a retail store vs online purchase.

Sales tax for local, none for online if the seller is out of state --- advantage INTERNET
No FFL fee or Shipping charge for local --- Advantage LOCAL
Touch and feel --- Advantage LOCAL
Q&A --- Advantage LOCAL
Selection, especially for rare/unique/short supply items --- Advantage INTERNET
Instant gratification --- Advantage LOCAL
Support your local community --- Advantage LOCAL FAMILY OWNED GUN STORE
Possible great deal or no 4473 required --- Advantage FTF SALE
Probable best purchase place --- THE PLACE WITH YOUR GIFT CARD NAME ON IT!!!

You still have to pay sales tax for internet purchases, unless you are a crook, at least in South Carolina.

I think crook is pretty strong term for an occasional purchaser who doesn't know the complex sales tax and use tax laws for internet sales and unknowingly makes a purchase that requires them to pay a tax. This person may still owe a use tax (Texas), but lack of knowledge and lack of criminal intent in my opinion doesn't make them a "crook", which is not a legal term. I'll bet 99% of internet buyers have no idea of their responsibilities regarding their payment of a use tax.

Depending on physical presence and nexus of a seller in Texas is what determines whether they collect a sales tax or the if buyer pays a use tax. There is also an exemption for the "occasional" internet buyer, with "occasional" defined in the tax code.

A personal question. Have you ever purchased over the internet and did you directly pay a sales/use tax and how is that done in SC?

[gljjt]

I define a crook as someone who knowingly breaks the law. Otherwise it is likely we are all crooks to some degree!

[Ânthony]

I think being a tax cheat is lots worse than "just browsing" and buying somewhere cheaper.

[gljjt]

I think being a tax cheat is lots worse than "just browsing" and buying somewhere cheaper.

I don't disagree, but there is something wrong with a system that no one knows about, that requires you to know intimate details about the sellers operations (both whether they have a physical presence or have EVER mailed a catalog into the state (it makes a difference)) and that takes hours of your time to figure out how to pay what could be a dollar or two in taxes. It is NOT a simple, you bought it, you pay the tax. I'll bet not 1% of the members of this forum who have bought online paid a use tax because they didn't know and if they did they didn't know how. I sure don't and I have lived in Texas my entire life. To call them tax cheats is wrong. I assume that you have paid sales tax via the seller or use tax directly yourself for all internet purchases you have made? If not, by your definition, you are a tax cheat. If that is the case, the SWAT team will be by shortly.

[graham cracker]

I think being a tax cheat is lots worse than "just browsing" and buying somewhere cheaper.

I don't disagree, but there is something wrong with a system that no one knows about, that requires you to know intimate details about the sellers operations

All you have to know is if they collected tax. Every online purchase I ever made showed that. If they didn't collect sales tax, it's your responsibility to pay use tax.

It's a one page form and easier than registering for this forum. http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/t ... 01-156.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[gljjt]

All you have to know is if they collected tax. Every online purchase I ever made showed that. If they didn't collect sales tax, it's your responsibility to pay use tax.

That is not quite correct. If the seller doesn't collect sales tax they are suppose to collect, you are not responsible to pay sales or use tax for their mistake. That is explicitly spelled out in the tax code. You are responsible to pay use tax in most other circumstances, but you do not have to make up their failure to meet their responsibility. A good example is Amazon.com. They have a physical presence in Texas, therefore they are required by the TC to collect sales tax. I am pretty sure my Amazon purchases have not charged sales tax (I'll have to check). Per the code, if they failed to collect, it is not my problem. And there is the occasional use exemption as well. Occasional purchasers as defined in the code pay no use tax. This thread piqued my interest, I looked it up!!

And thanks for the link to the form, I'll take a look. I agree we should pay what we are required to pay, but most peopled don't know what the requirement is. The law is too complex. Also, if the purchase is less than about $6, the postage to pay the tax costs more than the tax!

[gljjt]

All you have to know is if they collected tax. Every online purchase I ever made showed that. If they didn't collect sales tax, it's your responsibility to pay use tax.

That is not quite correct. If the seller doesn't collect sales tax they are suppose to collect, you are not responsible to pay sales or use tax for their mistake. That is explicitly spelled out in the tax code. You are responsible to pay use tax in most other circumstances, but you do not have to make up their failure to meet their responsibility. A good example is Amazon.com. They have a physical presence in Texas, therefore they are required by the TC to collect sales tax. I am pretty sure my Amazon purchases have not charged sales tax (I'll have to check). Per the code, if they failed to collect, it is not my problem. And there is the occasional use exemption as well. Occasional purchasers as defined in the code pay no use tax. This thread piqued my interest, I looked it up!!

And thanks for the link to the form, I'll take a look. I agree we should pay what we are required to pay, but most peopled don't know what the requirement is. The law is too complex. Also, if the purchase is less than about $6, the postage to pay the tax costs more than the tax!

This form has to be filed with payment monthly when tax is accrued? Did I understand that correctly?

[them]

A good example is Amazon.com. They have a physical presence in Texas, therefore they are required by the TC to collect sales tax. I am pretty sure my Amazon purchases have not charged sales tax (I'll have to check).

Guarantee they have. Amazon lost a huge amount of business when they gave up the Texas Nexus fight and started collecting sales tax here.

You may be thinking of "Amazon Marketplace" items, which are not sold "by Amazon" but "through Amazon". E.g. you can buy an Aimpoint sight through Amazon, but the company actually selling you the product is Optics Planet. Optics Planet may not have a nexus in Texas...if they don't, no sales tax will be collected. This is legal...if it wasn't, Texas would be after them like they were after Amazon for having a distribution center in Fort Worth but claiming not to have a nexus here.

[gljjt]

A good example is Amazon.com. They have a physical presence in Texas, therefore they are required by the TC to collect sales tax. I am pretty sure my Amazon purchases have not charged sales tax (I'll have to check).

Guarantee they have. Amazon lost a huge amount of business when they gave up the Texas Nexus fight and started collecting sales tax here. Ø

You may be thinking of "Amazon Marketplace" items, which are not sold "by Amazon" but "through Amazon". E.g. you can buy an Aimpoint sight through Amazon, but the company actually selling you the product is Optics Planet. Optics Planet may not have a nexus in Texas...if they don't, no sales tax will be collected. This is legal...if it wasn't, Texas would be after them like they were after Amazon for having a distribution center in Fort Worth but claiming not to have a nexus here.

All I can do is try to do what's right with a cumbersome system. I did confirm that we have an order " sold by Amazon.com LLC" (stated on the invoice, no other company name on invoice) that did not collect sales tax. Probably a shell company of Amazon's put in place for that purpose, the shell having no nexus in Texas. This thread has been educationalif nothing else!!!!

[them]

What's the date on that invoice? Amazon began collecting Texas sales tax in July of 2012.

http://seattletimes.com/html/businesste ... zon30.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I ordered $347.change worth of products from the amazon web page a week ago. They collected $12.70ish in tax, which is obviously not 8.25% of my whole order. Most of my order was sold by Amazon llc. One item at about $193 was from another company. The tax collected adds up correctly for the Amazon llc part of the order, meaning they didn't collect the sales tax on one item I bought through, but not from, Amazon. Confusing enough?