Furious! Elderly FW woman attacked at WM

[CHLLady]

I hear what you are saying, but I disagree.

We were advised in CHL class that I as a woman could get away with using my gun against a BG in certain scearios that my husband could not, for example shooting a teenaged intruder in the daytime. The fact is, thanks to George Zimmerman, we all face extreme public scrutiny over our choice to use deadly force if it is perceived to be an unfair or unequal situation. I for one, do not want my life scrutinized and dissected for public discussion. Thanks to the uninformed public, they are blaming "stand your ground" laws, even though it was never used in the Zimmerman case.

The tides are changing. We are now seeing people tried and convicted by social media. The internet is forever. I don't want my name linked to a situation forever either. If you think I'm kidding, look what happened when the cop shot that farmer's dog. They got death threats and they fired him! It will follow him the rest of his life. No matter if he asks forgiveness and gets it from the farmer or not, it will never be erased.

It seems to me that if you don't have the luck to have your situation on video, it's easy to twist and persuade people/jury's into believing you were a gun fanatic, just waiting to be a hero.

My kids have only used their karate a few times. My son's first time was to force a kid to let him go out of a bear hug, all he did was reach down and pull the kids pinky back until he let go. Thousands of dollars and hours of disciplined study and it was the simplest move that got him out of it. We were so proud! I know they were taught very well by their karate senseis. Leave if you can, the goal is to be safe. If not, you use equal force, the goal is to get away, not stay and fight; karate is your last resort. They were taught that now that they have their black belts they have more responsibility to use their skills wisely. They were also warned that due to that black belt, they could be seen as the aggressor if they go overboard in bringing that person down. Keep your skills quiet, be humble, do not wear your black belt outside the dojo. Is this philosophy really any different from having a CHL? I don't think so. And if you think my kids' karate is just for school yard bullies, I'd think again.

[suthdj]

Its really simple, you use the force needed to end it, nothing more, nothing less.

[RoyGBiv]

Did you all watch the video? The car was being driven by an accomplice so this was not just one bad guy but two or possibly more. This all happened very fast. You run up to help the old lady ( she is about my age too) and someone comes out of the car and shoots you. Who knows? I understand what you are all saying and think that this is a dastardly attack ( which is why I carry) but I am not going to get shot to save a womans purse. Someone attacks me directly and I draw my weapon. I don't consider myself a coward but I would not want to take a bullet to save a seniors purse, phone and baby pictures. The problem of course is that these decisions have to be made fast. If the cops can read my license plate and tell if I run a red light with their cameras can't WM do a better job in their parking lot? This should have been an easy police find the bad guy situation.

As I understand it, the accomplice was also committing robbery.

[TomsTXCHL]

Did you all watch the video? The car was being driven by an accomplice so this was not just one bad guy but two or possibly more. This all happened very fast. You run up to help the old lady ( she is about my age too) and someone comes out of the car and shoots you. Who knows? I understand what you are all saying and think that this is a dastardly attack ( which is why I carry) but I am not going to get shot to save a womans purse. Someone attacks me directly and I draw my weapon. I don't consider myself a coward but I would not want to take a bullet to save a seniors purse, phone and baby pictures. The problem of course is that these decisions have to be made fast. If the cops can read my license plate and tell if I run a red light with their cameras can't WM do a better job in their parking lot? This should have been an easy police find the bad guy situation.

I watched the video once, briefly, and saw only 3 things: the old lady being pulled-on by a stockier/stronger/younger woman, the guy in the foreground backing-away, and a car in the middle of the row. Didn't immediately realize the car was an accomplice though it was quickly obvious enough (didn't the BG get in the back seat and not the front? Was there someone in the front passenger seat? I dunno).

I still like to think I'd have at least yelled at the BG "HEY LEAVE HER ALONE!" (rather than backing-away) at which time maybe she'd have decided to just let go and get in the car & leave.

They DID get the purse did they not? I certainly hope the WM's security cams are good enough image quality to have gotten the license plate. A dumb place for sure to try a snatch--that close to the building.

BTW I hafta ask of the earlier post: when a robbery is occurring against a 3rd party like this, it's legal/defensible for another to pull a CCW and shoot w/o warning?

[RoyGBiv]

BTW I hafta ask of the earlier post: when a robbery is occurring against a 3rd party like this, it's legal/defensible for another to pull a CCW and shoot w/o warning?

See TX PC 9.32.
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/S ... m/PE.9.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/9.32.00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The question is...... When you see the old lady getting hit, how certain are you that she is the victim?
Because, if you shoot the other woman and it turns out she was actually the victim.... Big trouble for you.

[rotor]

Did you all watch the video? The car was being driven by an accomplice so this was not just one bad guy but two or possibly more. This all happened very fast. You run up to help the old lady ( she is about my age too) and someone comes out of the car and shoots you. Who knows? I understand what you are all saying and think that this is a dastardly attack ( which is why I carry) but I am not going to get shot to save a womans purse. Someone attacks me directly and I draw my weapon. I don't consider myself a coward but I would not want to take a bullet to save a seniors purse, phone and baby pictures. The problem of course is that these decisions have to be made fast. If the cops can read my license plate and tell if I run a red light with their cameras can't WM do a better job in their parking lot? This should have been an easy police find the bad guy situation.

I watched the video once, briefly, and saw only 3 things: the old lady being pulled-on by a stockier/stronger/younger woman, the guy in the foreground backing-away, and a car in the middle of the row. Didn't immediately realize the car was an accomplice though it was quickly obvious enough (didn't the BG get in the back seat and not the front? Was there someone in the front passenger seat? I dunno).

I still like to think I'd have at least yelled at the BG "HEY LEAVE HER ALONE!" (rather than backing-away) at which time maybe she'd have decided to just let go and get in the car & leave.

They DID get the purse did they not? I certainly hope the WM's security cams are good enough image quality to have gotten the license plate. A dumb place for sure to try a snatch--that close to the building.

BTW I hafta ask of the earlier post: when a robbery is occurring against a 3rd party like this, it's legal/defensible for another to pull a CCW and shoot w/o warning?

Again we see that what we first see and what really happens may not be correct. I watched the video again and had not noted that the BG got into the back seat of the car on the passenger side. So we know that there were 2 BG and potentially 4 BG. The man that "ran away" potentially could have been run over by the car too. This happened very fast though and one would have to make a spot decision as to what to do. Even with the aid of instant replay on video what I thought I saw and what was were NOT the same.

[CoolBreeze]

It is a world we created with sue happy people and only the letter of the law left. People are afraid to get involved. They are afraid they may get sued or worse prosecuted by the police. As was stated we are now prosecuted by social media. We used to take into account what peoples intentions were not just their actions. I feel sorry for that woman.

[mojo84]

Any time I see a 70 something year old lady getting pounded and knocked down by a much bigger younger person, I'm going to act as if the old lady is the victim. I also wouldn't recommend going to the gun first unless I perceived the old lady was about to be killed or severely injured.

Just because we have a gun doesn't mean that its use is required. If I did pull my gun, shooting would not be my first option. I would only fire the gun in the event I couldn't stop the assault or they turned on me. My primary goal would be to stop the assault of the old lady and the purse would be secondary.

Sometimes, doing the right and moral thing involves some personal risk.

[cb1000rider]

Just because we have a gun doesn't mean that its use is required. If I did pull my gun, shooting would not be my first option. I would only fire the gun in the event I couldn't stop the assault or they turned on me. My primary goal would be to stop the assault of the old lady and the purse would be secondary.

Yea, there definitely seems to be two camps on this:
1) Pull -> Fire
2) Pull -> Evaluate -> Fire

Sure seems that it can get expensive to do the right thing these days...

[TomsTXCHL]

Just because we have a gun doesn't mean that its use is required. If I did pull my gun, shooting would not be my first option. I would only fire the gun in the event I couldn't stop the assault or they turned on me. My primary goal would be to stop the assault of the old lady and the purse would be secondary.

Yea, there definitely seems to be two camps on this:
1) Pull -> Fire
2) Pull -> Evaluate -> Fire

Sure seems that it can get expensive to do the right thing these days...

Not sure what you're saying here. I'm in a third camp that would yell and scream and maybe try-to-separate. I'm quite certain I would not have pulled my CCW in that situation.

BTW in talking to my wife about this incident this morning we both felt that elderly deserve "special consideration" given that all that may be required to have a DRT old person is to fall and break something, or a heart attack, or an aneurysm, or...what-have-you. Yeah the old gal in FW looked Texas-tough but ya never know...

[cb1000rider]

That's true.. there is a 3rd camp that would have done neither. I should say that when drawing, there appears to be two camps..

[Saffron]

After everything I had to do to get my CHL, I'm not going to risk it for some stranger who couldn't be bothered to get their own.

[Abraham]

Were I too witness the horror (from the beginning) while some poor old lady was being assaulted, would I step up to the plate?

Of course.

Were I too stumble upon said situation, without preamble, would I immediately step up?

No, but I would continue to assess and maybe I'd involve myself...

For all I know, the old lady was the aggressor...

For the record, I've seen the "old lady" BE the aggressor while she was wailing on a small child.

And yes, I stepped in and she quit spanking, but from what I could eventually ascertain the kid needed spanking. This was in a grocery store parking lot.

[rotor]

Were I too witness the horror (from the beginning) while some poor old lady was being assaulted, would I step up to the plate?

Of course.

Were I too stumble upon said situation, without preamble, would I immediately step up?

No, but I would continue to assess and maybe I'd involve myself...

For all I know, the old lady was the aggressor...

For the record, I've seen the "old lady" BE the aggressor while she was wailing on a small child.

And yes, I stepped in and she quit spanking, but from what I could eventually ascertain the kid needed spanking. This was in a grocery store parking lot.

Did you see the two armed associates sitting in the escape car waiting for their BG associate to make their getaway? Look again.

[TNacp99]

HIndisght is 20/20. For all of our well meaning intentions, none of us can be absolutely certain what our actions would be. The Shark Tank Test and Justification versus Necessity are two principles that help me.

Shark Tank Test: if something was thrown into a tank full of hungry sharks, what would motivate me to jump in there and attempt rescure/retrieval? Jumping in the tank would be equivalent to drawing my weapon and firing to stop a threat.

My child or family in the shark tank? Absolutely, without hesitation.
My wallet, purse, or car in the shark tank? Absolutely NOT.
A stranger in the shark tank? Possibly, if the stanger was being raped, about to be killed. I would like to think that I would try to help in some way if I did not jump in the tank.
A stranger's wallet, purse, or car? Absolutely NOT.

Justification vs Necessity: just because we are justified in using our weapon does not mean that we should. The aftermath of any shooting is horrendous (from everything I have read, but fortunately not experienced) even when the incident is justified AND necessary. For myself, I never wish to use my weapon, EVER. If I do, however, then I need to fulfill both criteria: Justified AND Necessary.

Would we have been justified in drawing our weapon to protect the elderly woman'? If SHE was in danger of being killed, or raped then I would say YES to both justified and necessary. How about to protect her purse? I would say NO because I would not even draw my weapon for my own wallet. They can have my wallet because it can be replaced.
I saw no evidence that the woman's life was in danger in the video.

Here is what I "hope" I would have done if I had been the bystander in front of the car;
Move to a position behind a parked car but on the passenger front side of the vehicle (the car cannot run me over easily, the driver would have to get out of his car and move towards me to threaten me, in which case his actions and intentions would be clearly visible).
Dial 911 and report.
Yell in my loudest voice; "STOP, I am calling the police!"
Keep YELLING and describing the vehicle, the BG, etc as loudly as possible to the 911 operator so that the BG knows they are beind identified.
Capture on camera/video with my cell phone the car, the incident, the BG, license plate
I would be ready to draw my weapon if and only if I felt the woman's life or my own life was in danger.

Of course, this is all Tuesday morning quarterbacking and who really know what i would have done.
I respect everyone's thoughts and have learned from your comments. Thank you for teaching me.