Motorcycle trip to Eastern states, what about the pistol?

[frankie_the_yankee]

Guys, I didn't mean to start an argument here. Just looking for some info. Y'all have both provided info that I will back up with my own research.

I had gone through and read the PDO blurbs about each of the states that I plan to visit and so far you guys are both in a position that could be taken from what I read. Yet again, the law isn't written in a manner that even someone with two college degrees can figure out.

Y'all don't have to worry bout me going strictly off of y'alls input. I was simply looking for an opinion, and I thank you for providing it.

y'all have a great day

No problem.

You are wise not to blindly follow offered advice, whether from me or from anyone else. It's your trip and your fanny on the line. So the best thing to do is to get as much info as you can and make your own decisions as to what to do.

I know it irritates some on this board, but I am no fan of open carry. Even for trained police officers with retention holsters there is an added risk. For untrained people carrying in public in ordinary concealment type holsters with limited or no retention features, who may be big, small, young, old, weak, strong, wise, or foolish, I think it is a bad idea.

If somebody is a big rough tough hombre, highly skilled in aikido, karate, "combato", a former UFC champion, incredibly lucky, or a massive bore (skilled at quickly putting potential adversaries to sleep), who spends most of his time visiting Amish and Quaker communities or Bhuddist temples, it might work out OK. To all of you, I offer a hearty, "Congratulations." You're cool.

But an "ordinary guy" who might be out and about in places where both good and bad people might be around is making a huge tactical mistake by carrying openly, IMO.

Just remember that while you're out there living out some long held fantasy, some predatory violent criminal may be nearby getting ready to live out one of his.

And while it is true that some jurisdictions allow for open carry, there's no way I want to be the only guy on the street doing it. That would be strange, and it would attract attention that I neither want nor need. And FWIW, I have spent time in both AZ and VT, two well-known open carry states, and only once have I seen a civilian openly carrying a handgun in an urban area. So nobody's gonna tell me that it is common.

If I'm going out to eat, I want to just walk into a restaurant and eat. I don't want to spend time "raising the consciousness" of cops or others who may be unfamiliar with the law.

So it says here, forget open carry for your trip. Carry concealed where we have reciprocity. Unload and lock up where we don't. And in VA or any other place where you can't carry concealed in a place that serves alcohol, avoid such places or unload and lock up.

That's what I would do.

You're going on a bike trip, not a "carry trip". Enjoy!

[hirundo82]

I was simply trying to refute your assertion that open carry will automatically get you handcuffed and hauled off to jail in Virginia. I was not trying to describe where one can and cannot open carry in Virginia; if the thread had been "I'm going to Virginia, where can I open carry," I would have mentioned that it is cuurently not allowed in state parks.

I do not wish to get into another debate about open carry. I was simply pointing out that people in Virginia open carry every day without problem. Open carry is considered a right in many places and, like any right, could go away if not exercised.

I realize that you come from a state where carrying a gun is something shameful and needs to be hidden, as is the case in Texas as well, but that is not the case in every state. I see it as a way, where legal, to educate people that ordinary, law-abiding citizens carry firearms in the course of their daily lives and no problems occur.

And your insinuation that I am trying to "play cowboy" by exercising my right to open carry when it is legal is quite frankly insulting. It sounds like the rhetoric the anti-gun forces use when describing CHL holders as "Rambo" or wanting to play hero.

I do use a retention holster when open carrying, and I find that it forces me to be more alert. However, I have never seen any evidence (not speculation) that open carry will make an ordinary person a target of a gun grab or the first person shot in a robbery.

To 1TallTXn, sorry for continuing the hijack of your thread.

[Liberty]

I realize that you come from a state where carrying a gun is something shameful and needs to be hidden, as is the case in Texas as well, but that is not the case in every state. I see it as a way, where legal, to educate people that ordinary, law-abiding citizens carry firearms in the course of their daily lives and no problems occur.

Funny how the open carry states just don't seem to have issues with it. The second amendment doesn't claim that we have a right to bear arms only if we keep them hidden away. Seems as though the biggest and most emotional objections seem to come from CHLers. The traditional antis never seem to mention it.

[frankie_the_yankee]

I was simply trying to refute your assertion that open carry will automatically get you handcuffed and hauled off to jail in Virginia. I was not trying to describe where one can and cannot open carry in Virginia; if the thread had been "I'm going to Virginia, where can I open carry," I would have mentioned that it is cuurently not allowed in state parks.

Actually, the thread was about a guy taking a motorcycle trip through several states, VA among them, who wanted some info/advice as to where and how he could legally carry in some of the states on his route.

So telling him he can open carry here or there without providing all of the relavant details cold have gotten him into trouble.

I do not wish to get into another debate about open carry. I was simply pointing out that people in Virginia open carry every day without problem. Open carry is considered a right in many places and, like any right, could go away if not exercised.

I agree that rights can and will go away if not exercised.

And while people may well open carry in VA "every day", I have visited VA several times, and I challenge you to show me any urban area in VA where even 1% of the adults on the street are carrying openly. I know of no such place. That tells me that carrying openly in VA might well be considered a right, but it is also considered a bit unusual, to say the least.

I realize that you come from a state where carrying a gun is something shameful and needs to be hidden, as is the case in Texas as well, but that is not the case in every state. I see it as a way, where legal, to educate people that ordinary, law-abiding citizens carry firearms in the course of their daily lives and no problems occur.

My objections to open carry have nothing to do with "shame". I simply see it as a very bad tactical choice. Cops do it because they are in uniform and they more or less have to. They get training in weapon retention methods, they use retention holsters, and they accept the added risk, whether when mingling with crowds of strangers or in the situations that come up where they are forced to grapple with people when taking them into custody.

There is no rational reason for someone to subject themselves to that added risk when they don't have to.

Most people who carry a gun will tell you that they do so to enhance their personal security. That's why I do it. I certainly don't do it to add to my level of risk.

1talltxn is headed out on a bike trip, not a mission to educate people along his route that they have a right to carry openly.

And your insinuation that I am trying to "play cowboy" by exercising my right to open carry when it is legal is quite frankly insulting. It sounds like the rhetoric the anti-gun forces use when describing CHL holders as "Rambo" or wanting to play hero.

Open carry is a very poor tactical choice. I was merely speculating as to what might motivate someone to do it. You say, "education" is the motivator in your case. OK. I'll take your word for it.

I do use a retention holster when open carrying, ...

Good. I find that type of holster a bit bulkier than a concealment type, and thus harder to cover with a garment. So if someone were travelling, and wanted to sometimes open carry and sometimes to carry concealed, they would need to take a couple of different holsters along if they wanted to do it right.

...and I find that it forces me to be more alert.

Yes. Exactly how someone would prefer to spend a motorcycle tour, or a walk to the local quickie mart, constantly on the alert about the gun they are openly carrying.

However, I have never seen any evidence (not speculation) that open carry will make an ordinary person a target of a gun grab or the first person shot in a robbery.

I've seen no stats on "ordinary people" either. That could be either because they are so formidable that no BG or group of BG's would ever think of taking a crack at them, or it could be because so few people carry openly in urban areas that there are not many opportunities for such things to occur.

You tell me.

But check out the stats on how many cops are shot each year with their own (openly carried) guns. One memorable case was a year or two ago where a female deputy in GA was whacked in a courthouse by a prisoner she was transporting. She stupidly gets in an elevator with a guy twice her size who was up on a murder charge. He takes her gun, shoots her, and shoots a few other people and makes good his (temporary) escape if I remember correctly.

Of course with cops it's a little different in that a BG would know that they were carrying whether they were carrying openly or not - because carrying is just what they do. So even if the cops carried concealed it wouldn't make any difference.

But for non-cops, no one knows whether you're carrying or not if you are carrying concealed. So there's nothing to grab. There's nothing to make them consider shooting you first. etc.

In other words, you maintain tactical surprise. To me that is a big advantage that I would not advise people to give up.

[Liberty]

My objections to open carry have nothing to do with "shame". I simply see it as a very bad tactical choice. Cops do it because they are in uniform and they more or less have to. They get training in weapon retention methods, they use retention holsters, and they accept the added risk, whether when mingling with crowds of strangers or in the situations that come up where they are forced to grapple with people when taking them into custody.

There is no rational reason for someone to subject themselves to that added risk when they don't have to.

Open carry might decrease the risk for certain people in certain situations. Some activities where open carry might work better than concealed carry:

Horse back riding
Motor cycle riding.
Being in a small boat.
Surf Fishing.

Just because it might not work well in your world, doesn't mean it wouldn't be more suitable for someone else.

But check out the stats on how many cops are shot each year with their own (openly carried) guns. One memorable case was a year or two ago where a female deputy in GA was whacked in a courthouse by a prisoner she was transporting. She stupidly gets in an elevator with a guy twice her size who was up on a murder charge. He takes her gun, shoots her, and shoots a few other people and makes good his (temporary) escape if I remember correctly.

Of course with cops it's a little different in that a BG would know that they were carrying whether they were carrying openly or not - because carrying is just what they do. So even if the cops carried concealed it wouldn't make any difference.

you speak of cops as though they are better trained than CHLs. I can only go by my own experiance, But I've known a few cops and most hardly ever go to the range, ALL the CHLs I know practice at home and on the range on a regular basis. Most of the cops I knew would go to the range less than every 6 months, and they would complain about the cost of ammunition.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Open carry might decrease the risk for certain people in certain situations. Some activities where open carry might work better than concealed carry:

Horse back riding
Motor cycle riding.
Being in a small boat.
Surf Fishing.

I notice that all of these activities have a common element. You're not mingling with crowds of strangers while on horseback, for instance.

I don't see exactly where open carry actually reduces risk in these instances, unless you're just referring to the inherently easier access.

I guess if I was surf fishing and concerned about a possible shark attack I might want to be carrying something handy. (Note: I know nothing at all about fishing. Is this a realistic concern?)

Horseback riding, boating, and surf fishing are not usually practiced in crowded urban areas, or crowded areas of any kind. Motorcycle riding is a bit different. At times you get off the bike, and you may well do this in places where there are also many strangers to mingle with.

Just because it might not work well in your world, doesn't mean it wouldn't be more suitable for someone else.

I actually open carry myself pretty often on my small spread out here in Smithville. I judge the tactical situation to be pretty good, as it is not my policy to allow for crowds of strangers to accumulate and hang out here.

But check out the stats on how many cops are shot each year with their own (openly carried) guns. One memorable case was a year or two ago where a female deputy in GA was whacked in a courthouse by a prisoner she was transporting. She stupidly gets in an elevator with a guy twice her size who was up on a murder charge. He takes her gun, shoots her, and shoots a few other people and makes good his (temporary) escape if I remember correctly.

Of course with cops it's a little different in that a BG would know that they were carrying whether they were carrying openly or not - because carrying is just what they do. So even if the cops carried concealed it wouldn't make any difference.

you speak of cops as though they are better trained than CHLs. I can only go by my own experiance, But I've known a few cops and most hardly ever go to the range, ALL the CHLs I know practice at home and on the range on a regular basis. Most of the cops I knew would go to the range less than every 6 months, and they would complain about the cost of ammunition.

I agree that most CHL's practice shooting as often or more often than cops.

But I'll bet they don't practice or experience hand-to-hand combat anywhere near as often as cops do. How often do you think the average CHL grapples with someone for the purpose of subdueing them? I think the typical street cop does this pretty often.

I myself shoot a few times a month, but I haven't been involved in a physical altercation in almost 30 years.

Cops get hand-to-hand combat training at the academy. (Most CHL's do not train in this way.) In most cases, this also includes special techniques for weapon retention. They also carry pepper spray, batons, and other weapons to help them prevail in a fight. In addition, there is certianly a big deterrent factor in that BG's know that cops have backup available and also that if someone whacks a cop, nearly every other cop in the general area will drop whatever they are doing and make sure that the perp is swiftly brought to justice. They also know that there is a greatly increased chance that they will get shot and killed while being brought to justice, even if they just twitch at the wrong time.

Private citizens have none of these things working for them.

So it says here that unless you're an ex-Delta Force / Navy Seal / "American Combato Master" / walking, talking death machine, you're better off maintaining tactical surprise by carrying concealed when you anticipate you may be in close proximity to people you don't know.

And while IANAL, I also advise people planning to travel to unfamiliar locations or states not to play "gunshop lawyer" and open carry anywhere unless they are 100% positive that there is no local ordinance or case law under which they can be prosecuted, even though they found a section of a given state's law that seems to say that open carry is legal.

[Liberty]

Open carry might decrease the risk for certain people in certain situations. Some activities where open carry might work better than concealed carry:

Horse back riding
Motor cycle riding.
Being in a small boat.
Surf Fishing.

I notice that all of these activities have a common element. You're not mingling with crowds of strangers while on horseback, for instance.

I don't see exactly where open carry actually reduces risk in these instances, unless you're just referring to the inherently easier access.

I guess if I was surf fishing and concerned about a possible shark attack I might want to be carrying something handy. (Note: I know nothing at all about fishing. Is this a realistic concern?)

I don't open carry in any of this situations. Its illegal in Texas. But These are situation where I would concider it if it were legal.
a hand gun is poor defense against the under water kind of shark, but there are 2 legged preditory sharks are common in these waters. My thought is that the gun is easier to keep dry if it isn't covered with wet garments. Boats and motor cycles is a mobilty issue. I would suggest that a quick cover would be in order when entering a store or getting gas. Its been my experiance thas most CHLers have more common sense and brains than the laws that laws that restrict us. I don't intend to suggest to an individual that I don't know when they should open carry, but rather whenit might be appropriate if it were legal.

Horseback riding, boating, and surf fishing are not usually practiced in crowded urban areas, or crowded areas of any kind. Motorcycle riding is a bit different. At times you get off the bike, and you may well do this in places where there are also many strangers to mingle with.

I suppose one could adjust their clothing when they come to such a place.

Just because it might not work well in your world, doesn't mean it wouldn't be more suitable for someone else.

I actually open carry myself pretty often on my small spread out here in Smithville. I judge the tactical situation to be pretty good, as it is not my policy to allow for crowds of strangers to accumulate and hang out here.

But check out the stats on how many cops are shot each year with their own (openly carried) guns. One memorable case was a year or two ago where a female deputy in GA was whacked in a courthouse by a prisoner she was transporting. She stupidly gets in an elevator with a guy twice her size who was up on a murder charge. He takes her gun, shoots her, and shoots a few other people and makes good his (temporary) escape if I remember correctly.

Of course with cops it's a little different in that a BG would know that they were carrying whether they were carrying openly or not - because carrying is just what they do. So even if the cops carried concealed it wouldn't make any difference.

you speak of cops as though they are better trained than CHLs. I can only go by my own experiance, But I've known a few cops and most hardly ever go to the range, ALL the CHLs I know practice at home and on the range on a regular basis. Most of the cops I knew would go to the range less than every 6 months, and they would complain about the cost of ammunition.

I agree that most CHL's practice shooting as often or more often than cops.

But I'll bet they don't practice or experience hand-to-hand combat anywhere near as often as cops do. How often do you think the average CHL grapples with someone for the purpose of subdueing them? I think the typical street cop does this pretty often.

I myself shoot a few times a month, but I haven't been involved in a physical altercation in almost 30 years.

Cops get hand-to-hand combat training at the academy. (Most CHL's do not train in this way.) In most cases, this also includes special techniques for weapon retention. They also carry pepper spray, batons, and other weapons to help them prevail in a fight. In addition, there is certianly a big deterrent factor in that BG's know that cops have backup available and also that if someone whacks a cop, nearly every other cop in the general area will drop whatever they are doing and make sure that the perp is swiftly brought to justice. They also know that there is a greatly increased chance that they will get shot and killed while being brought to justice, even if they just twitch at the wrong time.

Private citizens have none of these things working for them.

Oh I don't know about that. There seems to be a large percentage of military/exmilitary/LEO/and ex LEO contingency in the CHL ranks.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Oh I don't know about that. There seems to be a large percentage of military/exmilitary/LEO/and ex LEO contingency in the CHL ranks.

Cool. And if you guys don't mind the increased risk of having to fend off a "snatcher", and are confident in your abilities to do so, I say go for it. Anybody tries to snatch your openly carried gun, you go ahead and kick their butts. Apply the Vulcan Death Grip if necessary. Under the circumstances, you would have good chances of being no billed. And rest assured, I'll be rooting for you.

I'll admit to being an occassional adrenalin junkie myself, though I get most of my "fixes" on the ski slopes or riding my motorcycle.

That having been said, for those of us who are older, smaller, female, or those who simply want to avoid the extra risk and unpleasantness of fighting for our lives with some dirtbag who tries to snatch our gun, I would advise them to carry concealed.

And it's also a good idea, IMO, for people who want to avoid unpleasant legal surprises or encounters with LEO when travelling through unfamiliar places.

[KBCraig]

Frankie, of those cops killed with their own guns, how many were killed by "snatchers", who saw the gun and decided to take it?

None, I'll wager.

Police who are shot with their own weapons start out in conflict with the shooter, usually in a hands-on way. If you show examples of police minding their business walking down the street or eating in a restaurant, and having their service guns snatched, then you'll have a point relevant to private citizens' risks when carrying openly.

Kevin

[frankie_the_yankee]

Frankie, of those cops killed with their own guns, how many were killed by "snatchers", who saw the gun and decided to take it?

None, I'll wager.

Police who are shot with their own weapons start out in conflict with the shooter, usually in a hands-on way. If you show examples of police minding their business walking down the street or eating in a restaurant, and having their service guns snatched, then you'll have a point relevant to private citizens' risks when carrying openly.

Kevin

See the example I cited above that occurred in Providence, RI last year.

[longtooth]

One example in the whole nation in a yr.

[frankie_the_yankee]

One example in the whole nation in a yr.

The poster said he'd "wager" that the number of times something like that happened was "None".

He lost.

If I found another one, would you say it was "only two"?

Show me the tactical advantage to carrying openly.

Please.

[frankie_the_yankee]

VA is a cool open carry state? In someone's dream maybe.

Look what I found posted at opencarry.com

*********************************************

I wanted to hold off my story until I got it resolved, but I must get it off my chest since I have no one else to talk to. Again this is MY side of the story.

This event occured 6/29/07 approx 4:55pm.

I was going to pick up a friend who works at a bank call center in downtown Norfolk. I decided to park my car at a meter and wait across the street since my car didn't have any AC and it was cooler outside. Of course you know I was OCing. Approximately 5pm, a security guard walked past me. I felt that he was getting a closer look. One minute later, ANOTHER guard walked past me to get a closer look. Now both of these guards didn't look me in the eyes, so I knew deep down, it was going to hit the fan.

I checked to see what one of the guards was doing, and I noticed one of them was on a cell phone looking directly at me so I kinda knew what the call was about. So I thought to myself, "I wonder how long it would take them to get here through all of this traffic?". Then I thought, "who cares?". I then heard sirens. They seemed quite far. As time went by slowly in my mind, I could hear them getting closer and closer. Next thing I know I see a squad car turn down a street and I thought, "oh there they are". Next thing happened was quite a surprise.

Ready?

A officer came around the corner with his glock 19 drawn pointing at my chest.

LEO1 - TURN AROUND AND PUT YOUR HANDS ON THE WALL!!!

Me - Um, am I under arrest?

LEO1 - PUT YOUR HANDS ON THE WALL!!!

I did what I was told, seeing that I couldn't convince him otherwise. He approached slowly and I wasn't sure who put the cuffs on. Then came the questioning.

LEO1 - What are you doing?

LEO2 - Why are you carrying a gun?

Me - I'm...

LEO1 - Why is it loaded and cocked?

LEO2 - Do you have a permit to carry that?

Me - It's a 1911, it supposed to be carried in cocked and locked and I'm open carrying it, I don't need a permit.

LEO2 - Do you realize you are standing near a bank with a gun? What are you doing?

Me - Now I know you are just doing your job, but I'm not answering your questions without a lawyer present. (at this point I was irritated).

LEO2 - Fine. (he then reaches into my pocket to get my wallet and get my ID)

Me - I didn't consent to you searching me.

LEO2 - I'm getting your ID.

Me - Again, I didn't consent to a search.

(meanwhile the other officer is glaring at my 1911)

Me - I don't consent to the seizure of my firearm.

LEO2 - You know carrying around a gun like this, especially in front of the bank is going to get attention and you got it. And what's with this hat, "Black man with a gun"? You are really looking for attention.

Me - I like to exercise my 1st and 2nd Amendment rights. So I'm being detained?

LEO2 - Yup.

Me - And why am I in cuffs again? I didn't do anything illegal.

LEO2 - For our safety.

Me - And mine.

LEO2 - You know that if you even cover up your firearm, it would be concealed and we could arrest you.

Me - Yeah....and that's why I'm carrying it openly.

While LEO2 when to "check my papers", I tried to make small talk with LEO1. Asking him how was his day going, what caliber glock do you guys carry, general stuff. And I could tell he wasn't happy. I felt that he KNEW I wasn't doing anything wrong, especially since he was giving me 1 word answers. I then overheard over his radio that the call was for a man carrying in plain sight. So I wanted to ask the ultimate question that I wanted to know the answer to.

Me - So, uh, after you guys let me go, what are you going to do?

LEO1 -

My friend came out the building and instructed friend to wait by the car. LEO2 came back and took the cuffs off.

Me - So I'm free to go?

LEO1 & 2 -

Me - Thank you officers, have a great day!

Before LEO2 could even gather enough breathe to say something (trying to get in the last word)...

Me - Thank you, have a great day!

LEO2 started to walk me with me trying to get the last word.

LEO2 - You know that there are certain places where you cannot carry that?

Me - Already know that, have a great day!!

LEO2 -

Now, I'm going down to the Norfolk Police Admin office to file a complaint and try to get a FOIA. Well see what happens then.

Now...the bad news...

After I got back to the car, I couldn't find my friend. My friend was waiting a block away and down another street. My friend said somethings that made me feel that my friend didn't support me. The things my friend said made me feel that it would have been better to be shot dead than live with the words and actions my friend did. I took my friend home and got into a heated debate. I left with the knowledge that my friend doesn't have my back 100% even thought said friend claimed they did. It's hard knowing that the people who say they support you 100% in anything you do only show 60% action. Not only that, my Dad doesn't support me.

I haven't told him what happened yesterday, but he believes that guns should only be kept in the house. But he's all for going to the range and gun rights. It doesn't make logical sense to me. I don't care what other people think, but it saddens me to hear it from friends and family.

Alas, I won't let the hurt ruin my ways of spreading the word of OC. I will ALWAYS carry openly (with a few exceptions). Unlike those who frown on OC, I'm doing something to educate and desensitize the public.

I welcome all positive and negative feedback.

Thanks in advance!

*************************************

To hirundo82,

Earlier, you wrote, "I was simply trying to refute your assertion that open carry will automatically get you handcuffed and hauled off to jail in Virginia. "

OK. I consider it refuted. Apparently, all it will get you is to be put against a wall and handcuffed while the police figure things out. I was wrong about the "hauled off to jail" part of it.

Sound like the way you want to spend your motorcycle trip?

To 1talltxn,

Now the guy who posted this is obviously an OC "crusader". Nothing wrong with that. But you stated you were going on a cool bike trip, not a crusade. So I tailored my advice accordingly.

So, 1talltxn, unless you want stuff like that to happen on your bike trip, I suggest you take advantage of our reciprocity agreement with VA and carry concealed.

[pbandjelly]

it's funny how some people HAVE to ALWAYS be right.
even when they're wrong.
or just slightly off.
or askew.
or not totally right.



thanks for the story, though.

[frankie_the_yankee]

it's funny how some people HAVE to ALWAYS be right.

Yeah, you're right. The real problem is that I "have to be right". The fact that 1talltxn would have his bike trip ruined if he listened to some silly advice about open carry in VA is really not the issue.

It's me.