Motorcycle trip to Eastern states, what about the pistol?

[1TallTXn]

Here in a couple weeks, I'll be heading to Michigan on my motorcycle, TX has reciprocity with Michigan so no worries there.
The most obvious route to Michigan takes me through Illinois which of course can be easily avoided by going through TN and KY into IN.

The question I have arrises with my plans for after Michigan. I'm planning on riding over through OH and WV down through VI and over towards GA.

From reading over at Packing.org, OH and IL are hell holes for gun owners.
WV at least allows open carry for non-licensed gun owners.

So should I just lock it up in the luggage on the bike or leave it very concealed and behave myself as not to attract attention?

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?

[stevie_d_64]

I have a friend who lives in Flint, Mich.

Our route ends up going up through Arkansas, Tennessee, Kentucky, Indiana, then on into Michigan...

I would avoid Illinois like the plague...And it doesn't even come into play, even on a good day...

[1TallTXn]

Yup, thats the plan, IL is out, I'll go AR to TN to KY to IN to MI

IL almost makes CA look good!

[Charles L. Cotton]

That's going to be a great trip. I take a peek at Two Wheeled Texans pretty often and I see you post there as well.

Chas.

[1TallTXn]

Thanks Chas, I think I'll have a blast!
I spend almost too much time on http://www.twtex.com Great bunch of folks over there

[frankie_the_yankee]

Avoid IL. Every other place on your list should work out fine. Just stay concealed and make sure you don't violate any local (state) laws referring to carrying while drinking and/or while in bars or restaurants that also serve alcohol. (I don't know what they might happen to be. You need to look them up.)

Have a good time!

[1TallTXn]

I'm going to avoid IL. The problem arises in that I want to go through Ohio and West Virginia. Neither of those states honor the TX CHL.
WV allows unlicensed open carry.
OH requires the gun to be out of reach and/or disassembled.
I'm sourcing my info from PDO.

On the bike open carry is going to be a bit interesting. I can stick in on my belt, but my jacket is mostly going to cover it. Not completely, but enough that it might be fuzzy on the "open" part.

Reading the OH code I'm more confused then I was before.

(C)(1) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(b) Any person who is employed in this state, who is authorized to carry concealed weapons or dangerous ordnance or is authorized to carry handguns, and who is subject to and in compliance with the requirements of section 109.801 of the Revised Code, unless the appointing authority of the person has expressly specified that the exemption provided in division (C)(1)(b) of this section does not apply to the person.

109.801 refers to the annual qualification of peace officers with their firearm.
So from what I'm reading, it looks like there's a really fuzzy area that I, a TX CHL holder, fall into. I am authorized by my state to carry a concealed firearm.

[tomc]

As far as Ohio is concerned, Ohio accepts Utah and Florida permits. If you have neither, you might have time to get a Florida permit as I've read that turn-around time for Florida is about two weeks if you use electronically scanned fingerprints. Utah runs about 3 months.

Be sure to review other states requirements and limitations also. For example, I believe that Michigan allows licensed open carry, but since you have a Texas CHL, you can only carry concealed. In Virginia, if you go into any place that serves alchohol, you cannot carry concealed, but you can open carry.

Have a good trip!

[frankie_the_yankee]

I'm going to avoid IL. The problem arises in that I want to go through Ohio and West Virginia. Neither of those states honor the TX CHL.
WV allows unlicensed open carry.
OH requires the gun to be out of reach and/or disassembled.
I'm sourcing my info from PDO.

On the bike open carry is going to be a bit interesting. I can stick in on my belt, but my jacket is mostly going to cover it. Not completely, but enough that it might be fuzzy on the "open" part.

My advice would be to avoid open carry no matter what the law appears to say. Many states have laws that APPEAR TO allow for open carry. But actual "tolerance" for open carry in real life can vary widely from place to place. In some states, open carry in rural areas is common and accepted. In others, it is not. And in urban areas in many states, open carry is rare and many people, including police, may not be aware that it is technically "legal".

So what happens in real life is that the PD gets a "man with a gun" call and you end up debating the law with them at the side of the road, with your gun confiscated (even if only temporarily) and your hands on the trunk of a police cruiser or cuffed.

They may well know the law better than you do. In some jurisdictions, there is case law establishing that if the sight of your openly carried gun causes some nearby "sheeple" to become upset, you can be booked on disorderly conduct.

It is very hard to have full knowledge of these things for all of the unfamiliar territiry you will encounter on a long trip. You could call the state and/or local PD or sheriff's dept. for the places along your expected route through WV. You may or may not get accurate information even then.

And I wouldn't depend on PDO to keep me out of jail.

My main point is, who needs all that unpleasantness? You're on a motorcycle vacation. ENJOY THE RIDE!!!

Bottom line: It says here to avoid the hassle and when in OH and WV, just unload the gun and lock it up in a hard sided case or saddlebag. With any luck, you will live through the experience and have a great trip.

Reading the OH code I'm more confused then I was before.

(C)(1) This section does not apply to any of the following:
(b) Any person who is employed in this state, who is authorized to carry concealed weapons.................

IANAL. But if I had a nickel for every gun owner who fancied himself a lawyer, even an expert in constitutional law, and attempted to determine what their "rights" were by reading a section of law, I could easily retire in comfort.

And most of those gun owners, if they actually acted on their dubious legal theories, would be rotting away in various state or county lockups.

I have no idea what the passage you quote means, and I would submit that you don't either. But I would guess that it probably doesn't mean what you would like it to mean. ("Authorized to carry concealed weapons..." probably doesn't mean, ".....by some other state", or, "...by Texas.", or, "....by my cousin Fred who owns the bar I work at." )

If so, we would have reciprocity with them. Since we don't, it probably means something else, like maybe, "authorized to carry concealed weapons by some Ohio state or local government entity that has the legal authority to grant such authorization."

But that's just a guess on my part.

And without knowledge of any established case law that may exist, the law could easily mean something vastly different than the way it seems to read to laymen such as us.

The best policy I can suggest for a long trip through multiple jurisdictions where one's knowledge of the law may be incomplete is to abide by the reciprocity info given on the TX DPS website.

If we have reciprocity with a given state, carry concealed with confidence. If we don't, pack your handgun for "transport" - i.e. unloaded and in some kind of locked case, and ride with confidence.

Enjoy your trip! I ride myself, and I wish I could go on a run like you are describing.

Maybe someday......

[frankie_the_yankee]

In Virginia, if you go into any place that serves alchohol, you cannot carry concealed, but you can open carry.

I would strongly recommend that you do not do this unless you really enjoy having discussions with cops while handcuffed.

ENJOY THE BIKE TRIP!!!!!

[1TallTXn]

Frankie, thanks for the input. I am in no sense of the word a lawyer, and I feel you are correct in your understanding.
I don't drink and don't ride fast so I'll do my best to avoid attracting LE attention in general.

I'll be sure and drop a link here of the trip report when I get it done.

Thanks folks!

[hirundo82]

In Virginia, if you go into any place that serves alchohol, you cannot carry concealed, but you can open carry.

I would strongly recommend that you do not do this unless you really enjoy having discussions with cops while handcuffed.

ENJOY THE BIKE TRIP!!!!!

I would strongly recommend you visit Opencarry.org, and the forum in particular before you start spouting off about open carry, especially in Virginia. It is very well known among Virginia law enforcement that open carry is legal, thanks in large part to the efforts of the Virginia Citizen's Defense League.

I grew up in Virginia, and I open carry some of the time when I am back there. I have openly carried in a number of restaurants there rather than go unarmed and leave my gun in the car where it would be vulnerable to theft (and would be much more vulnerable if I were riding a motorcycle as 1TallTXn is doing).

Contrary to the beliefs of many people on this forum, open carry does not cause people to faint at the sight of your gun. At least in Virginia, the police getting called because of open carry is rare, the occasional call is usually well- handled, and when the police do not handle it well they are hounded by the VCDL and other groups until they better train their officers on the legality of open carry. I have never heard of someone in Virginia being handcuffed for open carry.

[frankie_the_yankee]

In Virginia, if you go into any place that serves alchohol, you cannot carry concealed, but you can open carry.

I would strongly recommend that you do not do this unless you really enjoy having discussions with cops while handcuffed.

ENJOY THE BIKE TRIP!!!!!

I would strongly recommend you visit Opencarry.org, and the forum in particular before you start spouting off about open carry, especially in Virginia. It is very well known among Virginia law enforcement that open carry is legal, thanks in large part to the efforts of the Virginia Citizen's Defense League.

I'll make my recommendations and you make yours.

And I hope you are willing to help out with any bail money and/or legal defense expenses 1talltxn mightr need if he follows your advice and/or the advice he might find on opencarry.org.

I grew up in Virginia, and I open carry some of the time when I am back there. I have openly carried in a number of restaurants there rather than go unarmed and leave my gun in the car where it would be vulnerable to theft (and would be much more vulnerable if I were riding a motorcycle as 1TallTXn is doing).

1) You may "know the territory" in VA. 1talltxn's perspective was one of a guy getting ready to travel through many unfamiliar jurisdictions, where it would be impossible to know the applicable laws in all of them.

2) You say you open carry "some of the time". Why not ALL of the time? After all, it's legal, right? And ain't it really cool, kind of like what guys do in cowboy movies, right?

Contrary to the beliefs of many people on this forum, open carry does not cause people to faint at the sight of your gun. At least in Virginia, the police getting called because of open carry is rare, the occasional call is usually well- handled, and when the police do not handle it well they are hounded by the VCDL and other groups until they better train their officers on the legality of open carry. I have never heard of someone in Virginia being handcuffed for open carry.

So sometimes they don't handle it well, hey? Gee, where would anyone get that the idea that that might happen?

What do I care if the cops are subsequently "hounded by the VCDL" if my bike trip has been ruined by an encounter with some cops who didn't handle it well? Better IMO to avoid that unpleasant situation entirely by carrying discretely and in compliance with the law.

Finally, this is just my opinion, but someone who would carry openly in a populated area in a holster primarily designed for concealment (i.e. a holster that DOES NOT have some major retention features that generally render it too bulky for easy concealment) has a couple of screws loose somewhere. It's too easy for a gun to be snatched in a typical concealment type holster.

So you can sing the praises of open carry all you want. But unless you're advocating doing it using modern retention type holsters (like many police agencies specify) I consider it bad advice.

Also, FWIW, unless you're a real tough guy (and maybe even if you are) I would recommend getting some training in weapon retention and techniques to counter attempted snatchings. These situations can get really interesting, especially when the BG is a lot bigger than you.

Last year, a Providence, RI police detective was questioning a homicide suspect, who happened to be quite a bit bigger than him, in a room at police HQ. When his partner stepped out to get some water, the suspect ambushed the cop, overpowered him, grabbed his gun, shot him dead, and made his (short-lived) escape by jumping out a window.

Now maybe you might be such a big tough guy that no one could do that to you, or that no one would ever think of trying to do that to you, but when handing out advice you need to take into account that all kinds of people might be reading it, including middle-aged or flat out old and puny little wimps.

[frankie_the_yankee]

In Virginia, if you go into any place that serves alchohol, you cannot carry concealed, but you can open carry.

I would strongly recommend that you do not do this unless you really enjoy having discussions with cops while handcuffed.

ENJOY THE BIKE TRIP!!!!!

I would strongly recommend you visit Opencarry.org, and the forum in particular before you start spouting off about open carry, especially in Virginia. It is very well known among Virginia law enforcement that open carry is legal, thanks in large part to the efforts of the Virginia Citizen's Defense League.

I grew up in Virginia, and I open carry some of the time when I am back there. I have openly carried in a number of restaurants there rather than go unarmed and leave my gun in the car where it would be vulnerable to theft (and would be much more vulnerable if I were riding a motorcycle as 1TallTXn is doing).

Contrary to the beliefs of many people on this forum, open carry does not cause people to faint at the sight of your gun. At least in Virginia, the police getting called because of open carry is rare, the occasional call is usually well- handled, and when the police do not handle it well they are hounded by the VCDL and other groups until they better train their officers on the legality of open carry. I have never heard of someone in Virginia being handcuffed for open carry.

I noticed that while you were spouting off about how great open carry is in VA, you left out this little tidbit (from packing.org):

State Parks
General notes
Date updated: Jul 29, 2005 @ 10:47:03 pm EDT

Permit holders may carry in Virginia State Parks. The handgun must be concealed. (Emphasis addedd.) Non-permit holders may not carry.

Note: Park signs may not reflect the above law and say "No firearms" or "No guns." I suggest you printout the following page from the Department of Conservation and Recreation's web site and carry it with you just in case (the part on concealed carry being allowed is toward the bottom):

Department of Conservation and Recreation FAQ

Hmmmmm. So not only is open carry not allowed in state parks, but the writer of the above article seems to think that SOME VA cops or Park Police might not be aware that concealed guns are OK. That's why he suggests printing out a document explaining the law and carrying it with you in case you run into some cops who "handle it badly".

Of course, since anything can be edited, faked, cut, pasted, etc., there is no guarantee that any cops you run into will actually BELIEVE that the document you whip out is authentic. So you could STILL find your fanny tossed in jail.

I've got a question for TXI if he is reading this thread. What is the typical reaction of a cop when someone he is arresting produces some document purporting to explain that what they are doing is OK?

Anyway, it's a good thing that 1talltxn didn't listen to you and go tooling through VA with his shootin' iron strapped to his leg - 'cause open carry is legal, right? - and accidently (or on purpose) wander into a state park.

'Cause if he did, unaware that it was illegal, he'd be having one of those cuffed conversations with local cops or VA Park Police.

And he'd need your help with bail money, legal expenses, etc.

Maybe you'd even buy him a new gun to replace the one that got confiscated, assuming that he was still eligible to buy a gun after the whole mess was sorted out.

[1TallTXn]

Guys, I didn't mean to start an argument here. Just looking for some info. Y'all have both provided info that I will back up with my own research.

I had gone through and read the PDO blurbs about each of the states that I plan to visit and so far you guys are both in a position that could be taken from what I read. Yet again, the law isn't written in a manner that even someone with two college degrees can figure out.

Y'all don't have to worry bout me going strictly off of y'alls input. I was simply looking for an opinion, and I thank you for providing it.

y'all have a great day