Cop who refused to pull gun to take down BG with Blade.

[ShootingStar]

I have a friend studying Akido and knife fighting. Even if those pics are not real, my friend verified that someone who is proficient with a knife can do exactly that to you. I am convinced enough to use them in class as they show what can happen. Before you can determine if you're facing someone proficient or not with a knife, it will be too late for you if they are.

I will shoot someone coming at me with a knife till they hit the ground.

-SS

[KBCraig]

As the old saying goes, you can always tell the winner of a knife fight: he's the one in Intensive Care. The loser is in the morgue.

Hollywood has had its effect on knife mythology the same way it has affected everything else. Good guys get shot ten times in the movies and keep on fighting, but a single knife wound is instantly fatal.

Truth is, face-to-face knife fighting is all about opening as many wounds as possibly, and hastening exsanguination. Some wounds count more than others; major arteries bleed faster.

If you're ever faced with a knife, here are some important things to remember:

1. You will get cut.
2. You will bleed more than you thought was humanly possible.
3. So long as you keep your head about you and bring a gun to the knife fight, you will survive.
4. Most fatal knife wounds allow several minutes of fighting/survival time.
5. Stop the fight, then stop the bleeding.

Kevin

[flintknapper]

As the old saying goes, you can always tell the winner of a knife fight: he's the one in Intensive Care. The loser is in the morgue.

Hollywood has had its effect on knife mythology the same way it has affected everything else. Good guys get shot ten times in the movies and keep on fighting, but a single knife wound is instantly fatal.

Truth is, face-to-face knife fighting is all about opening as many wounds as possibly, and hastening exsanguination. Some wounds count more than others; major arteries bleed faster.

If you're ever faced with a knife, here are some important things to remember:

1. You will get cut.
2. You will bleed more than you thought was humanly possible.
3. So long as you keep your head about you and bring a gun to the knife fight, you will survive.
4. Most fatal knife wounds allow several minutes of fighting/survival time.
5. Stop the fight, then stop the bleeding.
Kevin

On point (1): Yes, there is a high probability you will be cut/stabbed anytime a dedicated attacker gets within arms reach of you.

On point (2): Depends on the wound(s), but a "little" blood looks like a lot....when its yours!

Point (3): Is a very dangerous assumption to make. A trained knife fighter will have skills that you may not be aware of. A good knife fighter is not just trying to "cut you" or "trade blows". Any properly trained KF is probably going to disarm you (defang the snake). Every cut/thrust is purposeful in that they are calculated to disable you bio-mechanically.

Blood loss is just a by product. Cutting perpendicular to major muscle groups and flexor/tensor tendons will render you unable (physically) to defend yourself with that body part. This can happen very quickly, and is extremely difficult to defend against.

Point (4): It may indeed take several minutes for you to "bleed out" (same for gunshot wounds), but your ability "to fight" during this time may have been severely compromised. I would strongly caution against relying on this.

Point (5) Yup!

Truth is, face-to-face knife fighting is all about opening as many wounds as possibly, and hastening exsanguination. Some wounds count more than others; major arteries bleed faster.

For a "street thug" this may be true. For a trained knife fighter, no.

A person (well trained) is seeking to "disable" you. You will probably suffer many "auxiliary cuts" in the process.... as they move from point A to point B on the target. We don't waste motion in knife fighting.

Additionally, most "trained" KF's will have empty hands skills that the average Joe with a gun does not.


Don't think that because you "have a gun" that you will necessarily come out the winner. Even a "mutual kill" is unacceptable.


Just my .02 on it.

[pbandjelly]

Point (3): Is a very dangerous assumption to make. A trained knife fighter will have skills that you may not be aware of. A good knife fighter is not just trying to "cut you" or "trade blows". Any properly trained KF is probably going to disarm you (defang the snake). Every cut/thrust is purposeful in that they are calculated to disable you bio-mechanically.

so, the advice you're offering would be to just give up? cause he may be trained proficiently?
I think Kev's advice to keep your head about you and believe you're going to get out alive is very valid. it's that old adage about thinking positively.
from what you're saying, you should just believe it's all over, I guess.

Don't think that because you "have a gun" that you will necessarily come out the winner. Even a "mutual kill" is unacceptable.

so.... run? hope he can't catch you?

[yerasimos]

I am not deigning to speak for flintknapper here, just speaking for myself . . .

Point (3): Is a very dangerous assumption to make. A trained knife fighter will have skills that you may not be aware of. A good knife fighter is not just trying to "cut you" or "trade blows". Any properly trained KF is probably going to disarm you (defang the snake). Every cut/thrust is purposeful in that they are calculated to disable you bio-mechanically.

so, the advice you're offering would be to just give up? cause he may be trained proficiently??
I think Kev's advice to keep your head about you and believe you're going to get out alive is very valid. it's that old adage about thinking positively.
from what you're saying, you should just believe it's all over, I guess.?

There are no guarantees in any type of fight. The fight will be what it is, not what you want it to be, and you have little way of knowing the skill level of your opponent before the fight is on. That said, I am not sure whether the criminal element has taken to the bio-mechanical cutting/MBC knifefighting style in appreciable numbers. I was under the impression that the point-oriented, repeated thrusting prison shanking method would be statistically more likely.

Don't think that because you "have a gun" that you will necessarily come out the winner. Even a "mutual kill" is unacceptable.

so.... run? hope he can't catch you?

If the circumstances and your health and physical fitness allow, yes. The best fight is the one you avoid, even if it means avoiding it at the last possible moment. Exit is generally the preferred option when faced with violence, unless you have nowhere left to go. Otherwise, flintknapper has reminded us again of the uncertainty of the fight and that a person's life is at great risk in this situation.

[pbandjelly]

what I'm saying, is, that you have to have the mindset that you will win, or you will survive.
that's a winner's attitude. Don't be all cocky, no one ever said that.
but you have to look at it from the perspective that you can't let doubt enter your mind, or you've already lost.

thank you, Bruce Lee.


on your second point, when faced with a deadly force scenario, I am reluctant to turn my back. not in the figurative "back turning," but the actual, turning to put my unguarded backside towards the "enemy."

[flintknapper]

[quote="pbandjelly]

so, the advice you're offering would be to just give up? cause he may be trained proficiently?

I think Kev's advice to keep your head about you and believe you're going to get out alive is very valid. it's that old adage about thinking positively.

from what you're saying, you should just believe it's all over, I guess.

pband,

I am not quite certain how you extracted all of the above from what I wrote.

First, I offered no "advice" of any kind (giving up or otherwise).

But, I was most certainly contesting the idea that you WILL prevail against an attacker if you simply "keep your head" and have a gun.

The original poster alluded to a person "proficient" with a knife (this does not mean someone who is just going to slash at you a bunch).

While proper "mindset" is a very important part of any actual fight, it only means that: Mentally "you have the will to fight/survive/endure".

However, If you lack the physical ability (or training) to successfully defend against an attack.....then "mindset" just means you died determined.

The purpose of my post was not to suggest that a person curl up in the fetal position and cry for their mommy when confronted by someone with a knife. Rather, I would have you understand how truly dangerous a situation this is, and to avoid it... any way humanly possible.

Distance....is your friend where edged weapons are concerned.
Distance....is your friend where edged weapons are concerned.
Distance....is your friend where edged weapons are concerned.

If you can maintain distance....AND you have a gun (and are competent with it), then I like your odds. If you can not maintain distance and the attacker is trained/skilled....you are in serious trouble.

The next edged weapons seminar we have....I would like for you to attend. I will pay half of your admission fee to help facilitate this. I think a demonstration will be more convincing than any words I could pen here.

Bottom line: Take all edged weapons threats seriously! You do not know the BG's level of experience. I am NOT saying "give up", I am saying "study up" so you'll have an idea of what might occur and what you can/can't.....should/shouldn't do.

Thank you for your thoughts and participation in what I think is one of the most misunderstood threats of all.

Flint.

[KBCraig]

I was most certainly contesting the idea that you WILL prevail against an attacker if you simply "keep your head" and have a gun.

Since that came from my post, let me re-state it thusly: "The only way you have a chance to prevail against a knife attacker is if you keep your head (and preferably have a gun)."

As you said, it's about attitude. There are no guarantees. A trained KF with a 1.5" Swiss Army pen knife can deliver disabling and fatal strikes. A lucky CHL with a .25 can deliver a single instantly fatal shot. Neither should be considered the norm, and no one should just "lay down and die" because they're faced with a knife, no more than they should when they're faced with a gun.

Kevin

[flintknapper]

I was most certainly contesting the idea that you WILL prevail against an attacker if you simply "keep your head" and have a gun.

Since that came from my post, let me re-state it thusly: "The only way you have a chance to prevail against a knife attacker is if you keep your head (and preferably have a gun)."

As you said, it's about attitude. There are no guarantees. A trained KF with a 1.5" Swiss Army pen knife can deliver disabling and fatal strikes. A lucky CHL with a .25 can deliver a single instantly fatal shot. Neither should be considered the norm, and no one should just "lay down and die" because they're faced with a knife, no more than they should when they're faced with a gun.

Kevin

Kevin,

I hope you take no offense to my posts, its just that these are two very different statements:

3. So long as you keep your head about you and bring a gun to the knife fight, you will survive.

"The only way you have a chance to prevail against a knife attacker is if you keep your head (and preferably have a gun)."

I am afraid that too many people already have the misconception that a "firearm" is a vastly superior weapon to a knife. Overconfidence in your weapon or your ability to use it effectively has filled many a grave.

As concerns edged weapons defense, you FIRST need to create time and distance (if possible). THEN.....you can access your weapon. With few exceptions....I see people advocating "going for your gun".

Well....... at contact distances this leaves you with ONE hand/arm to fight with while your attacker is slashing/stabbing you. A trained KF will delight in this unfortunate move.

Do some role playing, develop techniques that allow you (within your physical constraints) to ward off an attack long enough to safely acquire your firearm.

Don't just think that because you have a firearm and big bundle of willpower that you will prevail. Just 'taint so..........

Again, I did not anywhere say "lay down and die/ give up all hope...etc", I am just reiterating: Take edged weapons seriously.


Thanks,

Flint

[pbandjelly]

Thanks for the clarification, and I agree, edged weapons have a shorter range, but within that range they are lethal!
In all of my years of martial arts, I never saw an instructor advise going for your own weapon before engaging. It was usually engage (and this included creating distance) then counter, or disarm....
shewt, sometimes a simple sidestep was all that was necessary to create enough distance!
anyway, just wanted the rest of your perspective on that topic. obviously didn't get all of your point from that one post.

[flintknapper]

Thanks for the clarification, and I agree, edged weapons have a shorter range, but within that range they are lethal!
In all of my years of martial arts, I never saw an instructor advise going for your own weapon before engaging. It was usually engage (and this included creating distance) then counter, or disarm....
shewt, sometimes a simple sidestep was all that was necessary to create enough distance!
anyway, just wanted the rest of your perspective on that topic. obviously didn't get all of your point from that one post.

Not to worry, I've never been accused of having good communication skills.

[LedJedi]

speaking of knives,

what are the laws related to carrying a knife in texas? Anyone have a link they can point me to?

mainly interested in what / where you can carry and what is considered "concealed"... always wondered if a knife worn in an obvious sheath outside the belt was considered concealed. etc.

[KBCraig]

speaking of knives,

what are the laws related to carrying a knife in texas? Anyone have a link they can point me to?

mainly interested in what / where you can carry and what is considered "concealed"... always wondered if a knife worn in an obvious sheath outside the belt was considered concealed. etc.

The only statewide restriction on carrying a knife is that you may not carry an "illegal knife" or "prohibited weapon". See PC 46.01 and 46.02 for details.

Beyond that, there is no restriction on type or method of carry.

Please note that there is no statewide preemption for knife carry. Some cities enact their own bans. San Antonio, for one, prohibits carrying any lock-blade knife.

Kevin

[dihappy]

For the most part, i think "skilled" KF'ing BG's are few and far between.

Id take a skilled handgunner over a skilled KF any day.

Heck, you gotta be more than skilled in KF to even get close enough to someone with situational awareness.

[flintknapper]

For the most part, i think "skilled" KF'ing BG's are few and far between.

Id take a skilled handgunner over a skilled KF any day.

Heck, you gotta be more than skilled in KF to even get close enough to someone with situational awareness.

If you're carrying a knife clenched in your teeth....then yes.

Otherwise, you'd be very surprised to discover that an average sized man can "palm" an eight inch knife and you would never know it.

I'd wager I could walk right up to you (within several feet).... before you would have any clue that I had a knife at the ready.

I would have to agree that the average BG is probably not an edged weapons instructor, but they do practice the tools/techniques of their trade (especially in the prisons). Even a novice with a knife can be quite a handful if you are caught unawares.