Cities improperly posting 30.06 signs?

[FML]

Improperly posted 30.06 signs? How about every city or county convention center that SAXET rents?

Those are SAXET's signs, not the city's. If you want to be a test case and can afford it, then go ahead and carry past them.

Keith, doesn't 30.06 ( I don't have it in front of me) make locations owned or leased by a government entity not applicable to 30.06? To my reasoning, if the location is owned by a government entity it matters not who temporarily rents the space. I have kept an eye out for any case law regarding this, but have not found any. Is there something I am missing?

And on a second note regarding guns shows, I recently had a conversation with another instructor and this was the main idea;

Why do I need a CHL to carry a handgun? Because Penal Code (PC) 46.02 makes it unlawful to carry a handgun unless on my premises, premises under my control, motor vehicle or watercraft. Do I need a CHL to carry a handgun on or about my person at a gun show? Clearly not. People carry all sorts of handguns at gun shows. I suspect due to PC 46.15 (b) (3) (lawful sporting event) or the case law regarding gun stores, etc.

Regardless, no CHL is required to carry at a gun show. A person carrying a handgun at a gun show is not carrying under the authority of a CHL. None is required. Therefore, 30.06 does not apply.

My initial reaction to that was it must be wrong. Try that and see what happens. But once I sat back and thought about it, I realized he is right. Isn't he?


I am interested in others thoughts on this, other than the rhetoric of "let me know how that works out for you". I am looking for the actual legalities.

TIA

I do not disagree that a 30.06 posted at a gun show in a government building is not valid. However, there is a good chance you would have to be the test case if you are discovered.

Isn't that true for every government property posted with a 30.06 sign discussed in the 50+ pages so far?

If they posted the sign, they're probably going to try enforce it. So if I'm discovered, I may become the test case.

FML

[SlowDave]

And on a second note regarding guns shows, I recently had a conversation with another instructor and this was the main idea;

Why do I need a CHL to carry a handgun? Because Penal Code (PC) 46.02 makes it unlawful to carry a handgun unless on my premises, premises under my control, motor vehicle or watercraft. Do I need a CHL to carry a handgun on or about my person at a gun show? Clearly not. People carry all sorts of handguns at gun shows. I suspect due to PC 46.15 (b) (3) (lawful sporting event) or the case law regarding gun stores, etc.

Regardless, no CHL is required to carry at a gun show. A person carrying a handgun at a gun show is not carrying under the authority of a CHL. None is required. Therefore, 30.06 does not apply.

My initial reaction to that was it must be wrong. Try that and see what happens. But once I sat back and thought about it, I realized he is right. Isn't he?
TIA

Carrying a loaded, concealed weapon at a gun show WOULD need to be under the authority of a CHL, as far as I know. Many people are carrying unloaded, locked out (zip tied usually), unconcealed weapons at a gun show. The rules for an unloaded weapon are far different than for loaded weapons. Apologize if I missed something here, but how would you carry (loaded, concealed) at a gun show outside the authority of a CHL?

Sporting events are specifically ruled non-carry zones for CHLs. The only thing I can think of close to that is the verbage about being allowed to have a loaded weapon if you are a participant in a shooting competition, but that's not even close to a gun show. (Apologize for being too lazy to look up the pertinent sections.)

[jbarn]

And on a second note regarding guns shows, I recently had a conversation with another instructor and this was the main idea;

Why do I need a CHL to carry a handgun? Because Penal Code (PC) 46.02 makes it unlawful to carry a handgun unless on my premises, premises under my control, motor vehicle or watercraft. Do I need a CHL to carry a handgun on or about my person at a gun show? Clearly not. People carry all sorts of handguns at gun shows. I suspect due to PC 46.15 (b) (3) (lawful sporting event) or the case law regarding gun stores, etc.

Regardless, no CHL is required to carry at a gun show. A person carrying a handgun at a gun show is not carrying under the authority of a CHL. None is required. Therefore, 30.06 does not apply.

My initial reaction to that was it must be wrong. Try that and see what happens. But once I sat back and thought about it, I realized he is right. Isn't he?
TIA

Carrying a loaded, concealed weapon at a gun show WOULD need to be under the authority of a CHL, as far as I know.

Ok, why? I am not talking about policy, but law. Remember, Texas does not allow the carry of handguns except for specific circumstances, right? Under PC 46.02 those are on your own premises or premises under your control, or inside of or directly enroute to a motor vehicle or watercraft you own or is under your control. A gun show matches neither, right?

Under PC 46.15 (b), the exceptions to 46.02 are traveling, while engaged in lawful hunting, fishing or other sporting activity...., with CHL (required to be concealed) or as security, or on duty in the armed forces....

How do they people carrying unloaded, non-concealed handguns carry at a gun show? Why are they not violating 46.02? The same laws for them apply to carrying a gun concealed there.

Think of it like a gun range. Can you carry a handgun at a gun range? Yes. Is there a law preventing you from carrying concealed at a gun range without a CHL?

Sporting events are specifically ruled non-carry zones for CHLs. The only thing I can think of close to that is the verbage about being allowed to have a loaded weapon if you are a participant in a shooting competition, but that's not even close to a gun show. (Apologize for being too lazy to look up the pertinent sections.)

No, only specific sporting events are off limits. The "shooting competition" you are thinking of in the CHL laws are for School Sponsored events.

If I am at a sporting event where handguns are commonly used, like sport shooting at a gun range, I do not need a CHL nor do I carry under a CHL.

[RogueUSMC]

To my knowledge, Texas law never differentiates between a loaded firearm and an unloaded one...

[WildBill]

To my knowledge, Texas law never differentiates between a loaded firearm and an unloaded one...

[nightmare]

The rules for an unloaded weapon are far different than for loaded weapons.

Only in 46.13 but unless you leave a loaded gun on the table at a gun show I don't see how that applies.

[chrish20202]

The City of Mesquite Police Department headquarters building has a 30.06 sign on the glass doors going into the Police lobby. Once in the lobby, you're pretty much locked down except for the doors you just entered through. The 30.06 sign is in english and spanish and appeared to be correctly formatted. There are Municipal Courts and offices in the same building but you can not directly access them through the Police lobby. I think that there is a door off the lobby that, I presume, goes into the Court lobby.

I wasn't brave enough to try it, so I complied with the law.

On a side note, I was there to turn in a presumed, I think obviously, stolen shotgun that had the serial number heavily scratched off. Since the barrel and the wooden stock was missing, the PD said that it wasn't really a firearm and I could have just thrown it in the trash. I decided to leave it with them to do with it as they saw fit. This was the second shotgun (from a relative's estate) that had the serial number obliterated/altered. The other one was a shotgun as well and Mesquite PD (who came to the house to run some other guns), said that I could keep this one, just don't take it out of the house. They took that one, at my request, as well. I read the federal code and it seemed crystal clear to me, not a lawyer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express, that both those shotguns were illegal to possess, etc.

[unicyclist]

Thought I had this posted here, guess not. Here it is

Galveston County Parks and Recreation
4102 Main (FM 519)
LaMarque, TX 77568

Here is the thread.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=68991&p=852736&hili ... st#p852736" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Update

I have (hopefully) convinced Galveston P&R to take the signs down. I was directed to talk to their attorney, and after a few months, the attorney concluded that the sign was not enforceable and did not follow state law. He advised me that Galveston county is planning on holding workshops and county commissioner court sessions to revise the current policy.

After talking to their attorney and getting him to say the sign was not valid, I called Galveston P&R Assistant Director and she said the sign would be removed within a day, and if not then, NLT 7 days. That was a few days ago and I have not had a chance to pass by and see if they were actually removed.

WOOHOO

[unicyclist]

Not a city, but still an improper state office 30.06 posting.

Gulf Coast Waste Disposal Authority (Just offices, no pumps, factories, anything of that nature)
910 Bay Area Blvd
Houston, TX ‎
[ Image ]

Update
I have finally spoken with Keith Hardcastle (Director of HR). He is a very hard person to get ahold of, or he just didn't like me trying to get the sign removed. He claims he was in contact with the Attorney General for Texas and he was told that he is able to prohibit a CHL from entering the office location.

In all of encounters to get signs removed, this is the only person that claims to of talked to the AG. Every other municipality that I have been working with has removed their signs. Where do I go from here? I called the AG and its attorney-client so no luck there. I think I want to go submit an open records request for any emails concerning the 30.06 sign within GCWDA and see what I can get.

Any ideas?

[Keith B]

Not a city, but still an improper state office 30.06 posting.

Gulf Coast Waste Disposal Authority (Just offices, no pumps, factories, anything of that nature)
910 Bay Area Blvd
Houston, TX ‎
[ Image ]

Update
I have finally spoken with Keith Hardcastle (Director of HR). He is a very hard person to get ahold of, or he just didn't like me trying to get the sign removed. He claims he was in contact with the Attorney General for Texas and he was told that he is able to prohibit a CHL from entering the office location.

In all of encounters to get signs removed, this is the only person that claims to of talked to the AG. Every other municipality that I have been working with has removed their signs. Where do I go from here? I called the AG and its attorney-client so no luck there. I think I want to go submit an open records request for any emails concerning the 30.06 sign within GCWDA and see what I can get.

Any ideas?

Open records request to AG is your best bet.

[unicyclist]

Open records request to AG is your best bet.

What do you recommend I ask for? I feel like asking for emails between the two, but wouldn't that fall under attorney-client privilege?

[Keith B]

Open records request to AG is your best bet.

What do you recommend I ask for? I feel like asking for emails between the two, but wouldn't that fall under attorney-client privilege?

Ask for any correspondence between specific dates between the city and AG related to AG opinion on concealed carry.

[TexasCajun]

Not a city, but still an improper state office 30.06 posting.

Gulf Coast Waste Disposal Authority (Just offices, no pumps, factories, anything of that nature)
910 Bay Area Blvd
Houston, TX ‎
[ Image ]

Update
I have finally spoken with Keith Hardcastle (Director of HR). He is a very hard person to get ahold of, or he just didn't like me trying to get the sign removed. He claims he was in contact with the Attorney General for Texas and he was told that he is able to prohibit a CHL from entering the office location.

In all of encounters to get signs removed, this is the only person that claims to of talked to the AG. Every other municipality that I have been working with has removed their signs. Where do I go from here? I called the AG and its attorney-client so no luck there. I think I want to go submit an open records request for any emails concerning the 30.06 sign within GCWDA and see what I can get.

Any ideas?

How would attorney-client privilege apply here? The State Attorney General is a public officer, not a privately hired attorney. As suggested, request the records. If the location you listed is an office of a government entity, you should be able to also bring this to the attention of the City Attorney for the municipality in question for a double-barreled approach.

[unicyclist]

If the location you listed is an office of a government entity, you should be able to also bring this to the attention of the City Attorney for the municipality in question for a double-barreled approach.

Gulf Coast Waste Disposal Authority is a state ran agency, and it was the Director of PR that I spoke with. No city attorney/council that I can think of besides the AG

[Scott Farkus]

If the location you listed is an office of a government entity, you should be able to also bring this to the attention of the City Attorney for the municipality in question for a double-barreled approach.

Gulf Coast Waste Disposal Authority is a state ran agency, and it was the Director of PR that I spoke with. No city attorney/council that I can think of besides the AG

They should have some kind of Board of Directors and someone in charge of day to day operations, like a General Manager. The Board in all likelihood retains counsel for themselves - if you can find out who that is you could direct the question directly to them.

As a state agency, they would be subject to the Open Records Act and will either have to respond to you within a certain number of days, or tell you why they won't. File the request with the Disposal Authority, not the AG's office. It's possible they might try to claim some kind of attorney/client privilege and that's when you go to the AG's office and ask them for a clarification as to why this agency does not comply with the law. He's feeding you a line of bull - if this is a state-created agency and not one of statutory exceptions, the sign is not valid, period. Nobody at the AG's office told him that it was. They might have told him that it's unenforceable but there was nothing "illegal" about having it up, which is sadly the truth.

I'm really getting fed up with these agencies doing this and I wish we could have gotten some teeth put into this law last year. Unfortunately, even if you're correct there's no way that I am aware of to force them to take down the sign. Maybe you'll beat the rap and not the ride and all that, but at the end of the day there are no consequences to them if they leave it up. That's just the sad fact. Good luck and let us know how it turns out!