Mcdonald's Robbery

[03Lightningrocks]

Certainly, "take over" robberies can happen at many different businesses - that said, I NEVER go inside a fast food joint.

They seem to attract more of this type robbery, besides the inside of any fast food joint is generally noisy, with aerosolized grease to be inhaled and abundant howling brats running hither and yon destroying digestion.

Now, get off my lawn!

Tell us what you really think.

I love the way Abraham thinks!

[03Lightningrocks]

All of us would be making split second decisions, but this is probably what I would do. I have zero faith in these criminals not killing someone.

Well in this particular case, they did not.

Were they young thugs? older men? Sometimes, they scatter like roaches when the lights go on, as in that case in Florida where the two young looking perps tried a robbery at a so-called Internet Cafe. One older man pulled his .380 and fired shots, and the two perps couldn't get out of there fast enough. They were armed with a baseball bat and a pistol that might have been either a fake or a pellet gun etc. Once the shooting started, they forgot all about everything but vamoosing on the double.

I don't think you can count on criminals being particularly smart, not smart enough to weigh the consequences of various courses of conduct quickly. You mess up their OODA loop and take the initiative...... "Who Dares Wins!" provided you know what you are doing.

Remember Chris Kyle, the SEAL sniper who was murdered last year? He faced a couple of armed robbers at a gas station with pistols pointed at him close range, acted boldly, with the confidence that comes from lots of top-notch training and loads of experience, and shot them both dead. There has to be some advantage in doing all those hundreds of thousands of push ups in cold water, cold, wet, tired and miserable.

My vivid imagination fills in some of the missing facts from this story differently than yours.

1. I assume that they waited until they were all inside before initiating the robbery. My limited understanding of the normal layout inside a McDonalds building suggests that meant that they were spread out for more than 20 feet and not bunched together. It would have been almost impossible for me to figure out how many were involved because I would likely have tunnel vision toward the first one that I saw.
2. Since there was a group, I would have expected no less than 3 guns. As you point out, one or more of them could have been fakes or pellet guns but I would expect one or more of them the be real and loaded.
3. I've not seen many videos where BGs practiced good trigger control. My expectation of that is that a CHL firing at one of them would likely produce a reflex discharge from one or more of them so that there would be multiple shots fired in very short order. I seriously doubt that I'm good enough to figure out which of the BGs remained a threat, even if all of them appeared to be scrambling for the door. It would only take one of them panicking and trying to prevent people from following by spraying bullets indiscriminately back into the building.

I don't ever expect to have the training and discipline of Chris Kyle so that comparison for me is not valid. I get your point - it is more important to confidently act but I also know that many seconds often pass by for me before I know the actions to take. One on one or even two on one situations are different. My OODA loop probably tilts after I have to try to deal with 3.

Is it my imagination or did you just repost the exact same words you posted earlier in the thread?

[chasfm11]

Is it my imagination or did you just repost the exact same words you posted earlier in the thread?

I might have. I've written that post a couple of items and, at the last moment decided not to actually submit it.

Failing memory is a horrible thing......

[03Lightningrocks]

Is it my imagination or did you just repost the exact same words you posted earlier in the thread?

I might have. I've written that post a couple of items and, at the last moment decided not to actually submit it.

Failing memory is a horrible thing......

I still liked it... It just hit me as I was about half way through it that it sounded familiar.

[jmra]

Failing memory is a horrible thing......

Was going to post a response but forgot what I was going to say.

[03Lightningrocks]

Failing memory is a horrible thing......

Was going to post a response but forgot what I was going to say.

I was actually just looking for a reason to quote a multipost.

[jmra]

Failing memory is a horrible thing......

Was going to post a response but forgot what I was going to say.

I was actually just looking for a reason to quote a multipost.

[PhillRoath]

"........"Abraham".....
All of us would be making split second decisions, but this is probably what I would do. I have zero faith in these criminals not killing someone.

So your solution is to react in a manor that would insure they kill someone? Heck, you might even kill an innocent yourself. Count them again folks... Six robbers!! One person cannot win that battle in a crowded restaurant without being responsible for the deaths of many innocents. It is delusional at best to think otherwise.

That's quite a leap of logic. If we do nothing, they will not hurt anyone, and if we do something, they will kill. In a recent similar event at a McDonalds, no one resisted but a customer (male) died shielding children. There have been other robberies where innocents have been executed. Do we wait until they've executed someone just to be sure?

Note also that I said what I would PROBABLY do. And I would not just start blazing away.

To fight back or not to fight back, that is the question. And there is no way that we can know with certainty what results would be in either case. In most of these fast food fiascos, the perpetrators are coward punks who would most likely run when confronted by someone.

I will not surrender my weapon and will take whatever action I deem the best action.

I will never just give up and trust these cowards. I've lived too many years to try and change now.

[03Lightningrocks]

"........"Abraham".....
All of us would be making split second decisions, but this is probably what I would do. I have zero faith in these criminals not killing someone.

So your solution is to react in a manor that would insure they kill someone? Heck, you might even kill an innocent yourself. Count them again folks... Six robbers!! One person cannot win that battle in a crowded restaurant without being responsible for the deaths of many innocents. It is delusional at best to think otherwise.

That's quite a leap of logic. If we do nothing, they will not hurt anyone, and if we do something, they will kill. In a recent similar event at a McDonalds, no one resisted but a customer (male) died shielding children. There have been other robberies where innocents have been executed. Do we wait until they've executed someone just to be sure?

Note also that I said what I would PROBABLY do. And I would not just start blazing away.

To fight back or not to fight back, that is the question. And there is no way that we can know with certainty what results would be in either case. In most of these fast food fiascos, the perpetrators are coward punks who would most likely run when confronted by someone.

I will not surrender my weapon and will take whatever action I deem the best action.

I will never just give up and trust these cowards. I've lived too many years to try and change now.

I am pretty sure nobody suggested you give up your weapon. It is not really a leap at all to think that if we start firing a weapon at a person holding a weapon on us, they will fire back. Quite the opposite is true. It is a leap of logic to think the guy holding the gun is not going to fire back.

One does not have to be brave to pull a trigger. On either side.

[Abraham]

Perhaps, one could employ the "Blazing Saddles" type threat of holding your pistol up to your own head and command the robbers to leave or you'll kill yourself.

Hey, it worked in the movie.

[Jumping Frog]

I am not willing to passively entrust my future in the hands of people who have already demonstrated sociopathic behavior by committing armed robbery. I may pick and choose my own time, tactics, methods, or strategy, but I will actively choosing my own course of events instead of quivering on the floor hoping for mercy.

[VMI77]

At age 18, he is all about liking to argue any position with Dad and consistently argues the liberal side of any issue.

I have one son who is like that and liberal leaning (he's not always liberal....for instance, he voted for BO the first time, but not the second) and one with whom I pretty much see eye-to-eye, and has his CHL.

[VMI77]

On balance, there was the church shooting in France where a congregation member with a small caliber pistol took on a group of BGs with a lot heavier weapons. Sometimes, it is about how much courage you have and not about how much you are outnumbered. In a crowded fast food place, however, I cannot imagine it ending well if shooting starts.

I thought that was in Zimbabwe or South Africa....and he had a revolver because one revolver was the only handgun allowed by law?

[03Lightningrocks]

At age 18, he is all about liking to argue any position with Dad and consistently argues the liberal side of any issue.

I have one son who is like that and liberal leaning (he's not always liberal....for instance, he voted for BO the first time, but not the second) and one with whom I pretty much see eye-to-eye, and has his CHL.

I have a son like that too VM177. I think he dislikes some of the "moral judgement" type issues the Republicans find themselves attached to more than he fears the economic policies of the Democrats. Last political conversation we had he is calling himself a libertarian these days.

[VMI77]

And most important of all, who amongst us has the right to risk others lives because we are scared of danger to ourselves. Second... And get ready because I am about to say it the way it is... Only a darned fool would open fire on a person who can return fire with their loved ones sitting or standing right beside them. It is one thing to have a personal death wish. It is something else to put it on others.

Winners in battle know that living to fight another day far exceeds the honor of dying on the spot. What this means for a situation like this is, wait to see if opening fire is the only way. Why... Because you ARE going to be at an extreme disadvantage. Why not wait it out a few minutes to see if dying that day is necessary?

Another reason to hold back is that you have no way of knowing if an accomplice was pre-positioned inside the restaurant to take out any resistance from behind.