"Texas Gun Owners Divided on Best Aaproach to Legalizing OC

[jmra]

Thanks for the welcome Chas.

I'm really not inferring anything. Organizing at the local level is the cure, period.

My further suggestion is that instead of displaying "outrage" at OC activists, people concerned about 2A rights should recognize these events as justified blowback from unjust laws and redouble efforts to send the right people to the legislature and repeal them.

I'm outraged anytime someone brings a bucket of gas to a fire instead of a bucket of water. The radical OC idiots are not part of the solution, they are part of the problem.

[stevem]

I'm outraged anytime someone brings a bucket of gas to a fire instead of a bucket of water. The radical OC idiots are not part of the solution, they are part of the problem.

I can understand why you feel this way, certainly some OC activists are over the top. However, the question is how radical is too radical?

I think lawful OC doesn't hurt the cause of 2A supporters because the written letter of the US Constitution is on the side of OC, and perhaps even more importantly the human right of self-defense is inextricably linked. IMHO, the more exposure this unjust law gets, the more consideration it will receive by the public, the more indefensible it will be.

Further, I think events such as the recent Alamo rally that are clearly within the letter of the law are also appropriate, especially in light of the vocally anti-gun local officials .

However, the line of useful protest is crossed when OC is done illegally, positions itself against law enforcement in general, or worse results in violence IMHO.

Personally I have yet to see an "OC Group" that fully understands where the "too radical" line is. It's an unfortunate fact that those who are most inclined to public spectacle are also those with the least judgement. It is for this reason that I think most 2A supporters are better off focusing on the legislative battle and not falling in with one of these groups. However, I think 2A supporters are not helping their cause by criticizing the lawful exercise of constitutional rights, that is certainly a losing strategy.

[G.A. Heath]

Here's my take on the situation. The concept that we will win because the law and the constitution are on our side will lead to our defeat. It is the overconfidence that statement leads to that will get us. Unloaded Handgun OC was legal in California until the "In your face because its the law and the constitution" OC crowd pushed a little too far and their legislature outlawed handgun OC completely. Then the "In your face because its the law and the constitution" OC crowd moved to long gun OC in California, and what happened? Long gun OC is now illegal in California was the result they got. The same exact "In your face because it's the law and the constitution" tactics that were used in California are what the OCT crowd are using here, unfortunately we already know where these tactics will lead so why are doing it? Perhaps the OCT crowd is an unknowning fifth column for the gun control crowd, or perhaps they just want to stir things up, or perhaps they really don't know what they are actually doing.

[gigag04]

Somehow this has to be relevant...this is the face of open carry antics IMO...(not the exact guy but insert your protester here)

[texanjoker]

Somehow this has to be relevant...this is the face of open carry antics IMO...(not the exact guy but insert your protester here)

[ Image ]

I am wondering what the badge is on Grishams jacket.

[JSThane]

Thanks for the welcome Chas.

I'm really not inferring anything. Organizing at the local level is the cure, period.

My further suggestion is that instead of displaying "outrage" at OC activists, people concerned about 2A rights should recognize these events as justified blowback from unjust laws and redouble efforts to send the right people to the legislature and repeal them.

I'm outraged anytime someone brings a bucket of gas to a fire instead of a bucket of water. The radical OC idiots are not part of the solution, they are part of the problem.

This right here is the problem. So long as the CHL and the OC crowd treat each other like this, the issue won't be solved. Yes, I know, there are OC idiots. There are idiots everywhere, though, including the CHL community, too. I personally find the idea that a "backlash" will occur against all carry because of OC to be ridiculous, unless full OC is NOT passed, and the "idiots" feel the need to ramp up their own demonstrations, scaring Joe and Jane Citizen Sheep. Passing OC won't do it. Refusing to pass it will only egg on those on the fringe, and encourage them to get ever more flamboyant, outrageous, and angry. Refusing to pass it will only encourage those upset at the fringe to actually -look- into legal signage to keep the kooks out.

I live in New Mexico. We're fairly "blue," and the Democrat / liberal / socialist platform gets a lot of traction here, much to my chagrin. However, we do have open carry, and have for a very long time. We don't have the in-your-face open carriers here. Most folks are vaguely aware of the fact we can openly carry, but unless they are themselves gun owners (and not always then), they still don't pay it any mind. CHL and OC haven't been at each others' throats, generating drama the anti-gunners could use (except for that idiot who stirred up the legislature by carrying an AK or something into the state capitol).

So, why all the drama and turmoil in Texas? The gun culture in Texas is far more alive, far more vibrant, far more outspoken, than it is here. Guns are a background, a fact of life that many folks don't think about here; it's an active issue with a great many adherents in Texas. And yet, it's been fighting itself in Texas for how long now? CHL'ers are upset at OC'ers for causing drama and rocking the boat; OC'ers are upset at CHL'ers for not continuing to push the issue. And the longer it goes on, the more the extreme elements of the CHL crowd fear the repercussions of allowing the OC crowd have their way. The longer it goes on, the more the extreme elements of the OC crowd regards the CHL crowd as traitors, and ceases to care what they think.

We can be our own worst and bitterest opponents sometimes. What we need to do is obviously not what we've been doing, but I'm not certain we ever will do it. Instead of CHL regarding OC with apprehension, or OC regarding CHL with scorn, the two sides need to figure out we're NOT two sides, but one. But that will be difficult; there's been enough bad blood stirred up, enough provocation, that repairing this artificial split will take some time.

Until then, I suggest, from the perspective of a former Texas CHL holder, current NM CHL holder, that we go to some effort to not make this divide worse. I recognize that, while a backlash -is- possible, it's not very likely. So far, it really hasn't happened anywhere I've seen. Backlashes have been attempted over several different gun rights causes, but by and large, they have failed. When Starbucks' politely requesting that guns be kept out is regarded as a victory for the antis, we know we're winning. We don't need to be apprehensive about pushing for the proper expansion of a right clearly and cogently codified in the Constitution. If we push for it, we WILL get it. But if we're afraid to reach for it, we will never get it.

Likewise, from the perspective of an OC fan, those of us on "this" side need to recognize that it wasn't that terribly long ago a backlash would have been not only distantly possible, but a distinct likelihood. The AWB of 1994 expired less than a decade ago, and was a current event for most activists. While a repeat is not likely given the current state of affairs, a lot of the people who have helped repair our Constitutional rights saw it passed despite their objections, and don't want it to happen again. They've seen how bad it can get, and rightly fear a repeat. Colorado's new law is an anomaly, extremely unlikely to happen again - but it DID pass in Colorado, and likely or not, can get passed elsewhere if we don't pay attention. Additionally, shoving what we perceive as our right to carry anything in any manner, and almost anywhere (a perception I actually agree with) in everyone else's face will win us no allies, and turn some current allies into enemies, or at least unfriendly neutrals.

In short, CHL folk must trust OC folk not to be stupid... and OC folk must not show that trust to be misplaced. So far, we've all failed, CHL and OC alike.

------

GA Heath's post referencing California is, I think, a little inapplicable, due to the fact that it's California. Rights and responsibility have been illegal there for decades; it should be no surprise that the slightest inkling of the exercise thereof gets slapped down hard and fast in California. But I hardly find it representative of the rest of the nation currently, only a representation of how things -could- be, and an exhortation for us to stop the infighting and actually work together to prevent its repetition.

[stevem]

Great discussion. I hate to get into a point-by-point quotathon on my first day here, but you bring up a lot.

Here's my take on the situation. The concept that we will win because the law and the constitution are on our side will lead to our defeat. It is the overconfidence that statement leads to that will get us.

Overconfidence in ourselves is a problem, overconfidence in what is moral and right is never a problem.

Unloaded Handgun OC was legal in California until the "In your face because its the law and the constitution" OC crowd pushed a little too far and their legislature outlawed handgun OC completely.

Totally different context, first off, Texas is (thankfully) not California. Second, as you pointed out, California already had OC on the books, there was no clear linkage between OC and what they were trying to accomplish. Whereas here in Texas the linkage is quite apparent: OCers want OC legalized.

Rallying against all OC demonstrators, accusing them of being a fifth column for gun control, and generally attempting to delegitimize their cause is certainly a stance AGAINST 2A RIGHTS. It's unproductive, and frankly those people who are on-board with these groups are quite willing and capable to go on OCing without your support. The pressure building in this nation is going to seek an outlet, and lawful OC is an appropriate outlet. It's not even at the level of "Civil Disobedience".

So at the end of the day what do you think will best further 2A rights? As I said earlier, not all OC demonstration is productive and good. But let's not needlessly weaken a legitimate 2A cause with general condemnation.

When someone chooses to OC a rifle but gets hooked up by the law for resisting arrest because they didn't think it through, let's call that out as unproductive.

When the leader of an OC group threatens a law enforcement officer, let's call that out as unproductive.

But we have to recognize that 2A supporters condemning the exercise of a 2A right is itself unproductive.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Thanks for the welcome Chas.

My further suggestion is that instead of displaying "outrage" at OC activists, people concerned about 2A rights should recognize these events as justified blowback from unjust laws and redouble efforts to send the right people to the legislature and repeal them.

We can debate whether in-your-face tactics are justified, but the immediate question is whether they help or hurt the cause OTC seeks to promote. The clear and unequivocal answer is that they hurt the effort to pass open-carry. The presumption made by OTC and others who support their tactics is that there is a sleeping giant of voters who will see people carrying long guns and say, "Gee, we need to change Texas law so fine folks can carry handguns openly."

That is an irrational belief that has proven false for years. The response to the New Black Panthers carrying long guns at the Republican National Convention in Houston was a watering down of the Texas preemption law by allowing cities to regulate the carrying of arms at political gatherings, among other places. (This does not apply to CHLs.) For the last 4 years, open-carry has come up in TV and radio news reports. They are almost universally negative. The man-on-the-street interviews are almost 100% against open-carry. Scaring people doesn't win them to your side of the issue. At the risk of repeating myself once too often, if these in-your-face tactics continue, they may taint the issue as badly as the bomb-throwers did in 2009 and 2011 and put the only organization that can pass open-carry on the sidelines. While this is merely a prediction, it is one based upon the very recent past.

As for supporting the Second Amendment, it is my belief that the most militant of open-carry promoters don't care one whit about the Second Amendment in it's entirety. They care about one issue and only one issue and that's the ability to openly-carry a handgun. They want open-carry regardless of what it does to other gun rights and other bills. There can be no better example of this than the President of Lone Star CDL repeatedly claiming, no guaranteeing, that any open-carry bill will amend TPC §30.06 so that it will apply to both open and concealed carry. He demanded the very thing that most current CHL holders feared most -- a huge increase in posting of 30.06 signs and on the places most of us enter often.

The only open-carry demonstration that has occurred recently that didn't hurt the cause was the rally at the Alamo. It was well organized with advance notice to law enforcement and major political figures spoke at the event. That's much different that walking into Wal-Mart with an AR-15 or walking down a street.

Chas.

[Beiruty]

Chas,

What is your take on Large Bulletin boards next to highway promoting open carry?

[Cedar Park Dad]

In short, CHL folk must trust OC folk not to be stupid... and OC folk must not show that trust to be misplaced. So far, we've all failed, CHL and OC alike.

Trust must be earned. The opposite has occurred.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Chas,

What is your take on Large Bulletin boards next to highway promoting open carry?

I haven't seen any, but as long as there aren't any inflammatory statements or photos, I think that's a fine way to get the general public to focus on the issue. However, the question arises "do we really want 22+ million Texans focusing on open-carry?"

Personally, I prefer the approach that has proven effective for decades and that's quietly getting support in the legislature during the off season, drafting a good bill, finding House and Senate sponsors who will not merely put their names on the bills but who will work their tails off to get it passed, and issuing Calls-To-Action if/when they are necessary. Sometimes the game has been won before it starts, so we don't rally the troops unnecessarily. I prefer this approach because it is what I know to work, it's what I've done since 1987, and I see no reason to change a procedure that has proven effective.

Admittedly, some few folks will not like this approach because it doesn't have the sex appeal or pizazz of an in-your-face demonstration. Unfortunately, people who prefer the in-your-face tactics seem to care more about making a statement than making a difference.

Chas.

[G.A. Heath]

Great discussion. I hate to get into a point-by-point quotathon on my first day here, but you bring up a lot.

Here's my take on the situation. The concept that we will win because the law and the constitution are on our side will lead to our defeat. It is the overconfidence that statement leads to that will get us.

Overconfidence in ourselves is a problem, overconfidence in what is moral and right is never a problem.

Unloaded Handgun OC was legal in California until the "In your face because its the law and the constitution" OC crowd pushed a little too far and their legislature outlawed handgun OC completely.

Totally different context, first off, Texas is (thankfully) not California. Second, as you pointed out, California already had OC on the books, there was no clear linkage between OC and what they were trying to accomplish. Whereas here in Texas the linkage is quite apparent: OCers want OC legalized.

Rallying against all OC demonstrators, accusing them of being a fifth column for gun control, and generally attempting to delegitimize their cause is certainly a stance AGAINST 2A RIGHTS. It's unproductive, and frankly those people who are on-board with these groups are quite willing and capable to go on OCing without your support. The pressure building in this nation is going to seek an outlet, and lawful OC is an appropriate outlet. It's not even at the level of "Civil Disobedience".

So at the end of the day what do you think will best further 2A rights? As I said earlier, not all OC demonstration is productive and good. But let's not needlessly weaken a legitimate 2A cause with general condemnation.

When someone chooses to OC a rifle but gets hooked up by the law for resisting arrest because they didn't think it through, let's call that out as unproductive.

When the leader of an OC group threatens a law enforcement officer, let's call that out as unproductive.

But we have to recognize that 2A supporters condemning the exercise of a 2A right is itself unproductive.

First off, overconfidence is a problem even when it comes to what is moral and right. Unfortunately courts don't always do what is moral or right, and this is due to them being run by people. People are influenced by in your face tactics, people are influenced by appearences, and people are influenced by past actions. Expecting the fact that something is moral and/or right will win the day is foolish at best because there are people who will fight it tooth and nail.

Secondly, my reference to Cali handgun OC was the introduction as to how California lost Long Gun OC. If you think that it won't happen here then you need to wake up and look around. In the last few years how much has the population of Texas grown, how much of that growth came from "Blue States" population. Many of those in the "new" population will vote in support of people who will do here exactly what was done in California. So what we need to do is get control of things and start to generate good publicity.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Great discussion. I hate to get into a point-by-point quotathon on my first day here, but you bring up a lot.

Here's my take on the situation. The concept that we will win because the law and the constitution are on our side will lead to our defeat. It is the overconfidence that statement leads to that will get us.

Overconfidence in ourselves is a problem, overconfidence in what is moral and right is never a problem.

Unloaded Handgun OC was legal in California until the "In your face because its the law and the constitution" OC crowd pushed a little too far and their legislature outlawed handgun OC completely.

Totally different context, first off, Texas is (thankfully) not California. Second, as you pointed out, California already had OC on the books, there was no clear linkage between OC and what they were trying to accomplish. Whereas here in Texas the linkage is quite apparent: OCers want OC legalized.

But this is precisely what did happen in Texas! When the New Black Panthers marched on the Brown Convention Center in Houston to protest against the Republican National Convention, they carried rifles and shotguns. This so inflamed and/or frightened a sufficient number of Texans that the very strong Texas firearm preemption statute was amended during the very next legislative session to allow cities to prohibit the carrying of all firearms at a public park, public meeting of a municipality, county, or other governmental body, or at a political rally, parade, or official political meeting. CHLs are exempt from this provision. (See Tex. Local Gov't Code §229.001(b)(6))

Continued in-your-face tactics are far more likely to result in a bill to make it unlawful to carry long guns, with certain exceptions for hunting, sport shooting, cars, etc., than it is to result in passage of open-carry.

Chas.

[mojo84]

It would be so much easier to garner support for a bill to limit where long guns can be carried like Charles is saying than it would be for an open carry bill.

[o b juan]

Open carry of a long gun just happens to remind me of yjr NEW BLACK PANThER PARTY and Quanell X and some of the demonstrations held around the country..
Why were the carrying shotguns?? Doesnt take to much thinking to come up with Intimidation !!