Compliance

[VMI77]

While I haven't had a traffic citation in many years, the possibility of one and of an LEO trying to disarm me during it are, I believe, higher than my being in a defensive situation with a criminal.

I think the risks of being shot by police as a CHL holder are over stated, especially in a state like Texas. Granted, even police get shot by other police when identities are uncertain, but I think the stories we read about in the "news" are statistical outliers. I've had numerous personal encounters with officers while carrying and if any of them noticed I was armed they didn't say anything about it. I've been stopped several times for various reasons, by DPS and locals, and not one has shown the slightest bit of concern that I was armed. I've never been asked to disarm.

OTOH, I'm not suggesting you can completely dismiss the risk. I do whatever I can to eliminate any possible misunderstandings --for instance, keep both hands atop the steering wheel until the officer asks for my license, having the license ready, and not making sudden or furtive movements. If I am ever confronted in a potentially hostile situation I'm not going to do any of the things that have led to CHL holders being shot. Yes, in-spite of best efforts tragedy can ensue, but I don't see the risk as significant enough to deter me from carrying.

[VMI77]

I would go to my knees with my hands up above my head so that when they arrived I was not a threat. I would tell them where my gun was.

That's exactly what I was thinking I'd do. Good to hear that advice from a LEO.

[texanjoker]

This is a tough subject with many videos out there. "Trying"to comply can be an issue. Some bad guys act like they are trying to comply just to get the upper hand. People of all ages and persons with disability can kill you. How long are you willing to stand there holding an armed person at gun point that refuses to put the weapon down? In fact there are many training tapes that show how fast a suspect can switch from pointing a gun at their own head or down, and then shoot the officer before the officer can react. I love putting trainees through that scenario because they always fail and learn from it. The key is to not have a weapon in ones hand after an incident when the police arrive. For me I know I do not want to have a gun in my hand when leo's arrive if I have been involved in a shooting. Sure I can waive a badge, but so can any bad guy that has a chl or security badge, or even "real" badges that they have stolen and now carry.

But let's assume that we all agree that gun in hand = bad situation. Where ever the gun is, it is not in my hands and my hands are clearly visible and will move very slowly doing whatever I'm going to do. That still may not get me past the compliance issue.

With no gun in hand and being compliant you should be good to go. There are rarely "perfect" scenarios for anybody. I haven't read about any chl holders being shot by the police but I have read about off duty and plain clothed officers that didn't comply with the responding officers commands and they were shot. I know I am going to do whatever they tell me to do.

Sorry but you missed the point that that I was trying to make. I want to try again.

There is no gun in my hand BUT the arriving officers know that someone at the location had a gun. I submit to you that they may treat everyone present as though they are the one with the gun. I've re-holstered it but it is still there.
You are making the exact point when you talk about the plain clothes officers who were not compliant and got shot. In my case, it could well be because I'm failing to grasp quickly enough what they want me to do. That "quickly enough" I believe to be less than 10 seconds.

It makes no sense to me that I should end up being worse off after defending myself because of a police compliance problem but that is exactly the nightmare scenario that is going through my head. Until I can wrap my head around how not let that happen, it is going to remain my nightmare. I totally understand that the officers need to following their training and protect themselves. But I sure don't want them to do that at my expense - I'm not a threat to them. I totally get it that they don't understand that upon their arrival.

I get your point. I personally think your fear is getting the best of you. My biggest fear is going through another shooting investigation. You can see how the public just loves to mondaynight quarterback any decision.

Regardless if you actually have a gun in your 'hand' you are stating they believe somebody at the location has a gun and you have one holstered. That would mean they are treating you as an armed subject. You should follow the sound advice that has been given. Be prepared to end up in handcuffs as well while they sort out what happened.

The situations with people being shot are people that refuse to put a gun down or even point the gun at police, not compliant people with a "holstered" weapon. We train heavily for high risk take downs with people having guns on their person. You don't read about those people being shot. The ones that get shot are the ones that go for the gun after pretending to be compliant. Right up to the time one is handcuffed is when the bad guy is going to make a run for it. Happens all the time.

[EEllis]

Personally I think the biggest risk is from actions caused by ones own mindset. That you aren't the bad guy so you shouldn't have to prone out. That the cops should just listen to your explanation and then everything will be ok. If there is a shooting and cops roll up I'm not trying to do anything until the cops secure the scene. Hands on my head and in my mind I am already set for being yelled at, berated, jumped on, whatever. Mind you it does mean I might be at greater risk from impersonators but as long as I'm not jumped by surprise I won't be giving the cops any reason to think I'm a threat.

[b322da]

You have both my sympathy and understanding, chasfm11. I have been deafer nor a post for some time now, and I shared, and still share, your disability and your dilemma about unintentionally showing signs of noncompliance to nervous law enforcement authorities. We have both received well-meaning and helpful advice here from other members, but this thread convinces me even further that one must personally experience deafness, or be a professional in treating that disability, in order to really understand it.

Reading those horrible stories in the press which have been cited above, and others, concerned me so seriously that for a while, when hearing aids were no longer any help, I stopped carrying, although licensed. I decided that this apparent noncompliance issue could be a problem whether or not one was armed, but was more likely to be a fatal problem when both deaf and armed.

About a year ago I had a Cochlear implant -- a surgical procedure, which I am sure you are familiar with. This procedure costs a bit more than a Kimber --without both Medicare and Tricare I could not even have considered having the procedure. Bills from the surgeon, other doctors, hospital and therapists, required to learn how to hear again, in a completely different manner, came at last reckoning to in excess of $130,000. These charges were significantly reduced before payment, but Wow!

I am still learning how to hear again, using both a therapist and CD lessons. Day by day things are improving greatly. It takes a lot of hard work. While I have seen great gobs of improvement, I still have problems hearing with the implant. In my case, and we will all be different, I have difficulty comprehending the first letter or syllable spoken. For example if one says "GO" or "NO" they tend to both sound to me like "OHH." Another example: "RUN" and "GUN" often sound to me as "UN." "STOP" and "DROP" often sound like "OPP." Have I helped with my dilemma, or made it worse? That is not at all clear to me, but I again generally carry concealed, while retaining the concern both you and I have.

I wish I could help you, chasfm11. I wish I could help myself. There are no doubt an infinite number of scenarios we might try to plan for, but Murphy's Law has always, at least to me, been inexorable. That is, the scenario when my life may be endangered by an inability to communicate with one or more LEOs is bound to be one I have never considered in advance.

An imaginary horrible for you to think about: one of those many new LEO swat teams pounds on your door at zero-dark-30 demanding entrance to serve a warrant at the wrong address. You do not hear the pounding, and suddenly a dozen masked men in black jump suits, armed with long black guns, and having twitchy fingers, crash through the door as you jump to your feet while armed. Is it likely that you would live through that?

I will not apologize if I increase your concern with examples like this, since your concern is what may keep you alive.

When driving my car I keep my DL, CHL and proof of insurance clipped together in a place where I can grab them quickly without moving around or touching my person, and hope for the best, while having them in one of my hands located at 10 and 2 when the LEO approaches. One thing which I do not think has been mentioned above is that a deaf person tends, generally, to speak quite loudly, as I normally do. To yell at a nervous LEO may be unhealthy, and my wife works with me to bring my voice level down.

I know the law probably as well as most of us do. Before my retirement I was a federal LEO for a long time, then a prosecutor, then a trial lawyer, then a judge. All that gives me no advantage -- I can’t even help myself. I think that all we can do is the best we can do, and I sure do hope you are able to improve your hearing and reduce your concern -- but always have that concern to some extent, since to ignore it can be fatal.

Jim

[chasfm11]

Jim,

Thank you very much for your straight forward and heartfelt advice. I'm fortunate in that while I have hearing loss, a good percentage of the time it does not have a profound impact on me in any social interaction. I now have a full day of wearing hearing aids under my belt but it will take several more before I'm able to determine their impact. I've already found several circumstances where they provide no change.

Texasjoker, my approach to my fear is analysis. After logging 10s of 1,000s of flying miles, I suddenly became fearful of flying under rough air conditions. Before the phobia developed, I can remember circling the Philadelphia airport for more than an hour in a pretty violent thunderstorm and being more awestruck than afraid. It took me a while but I finally wrapped my head around the situation and have not experienced that rough air anxiety again. I believe that I'll be able to do the same with my worries about being compliant enough to survive a LE encounter under duress. It is very reassuring to me that I'm not alone, either in my condition or in my concern about it. Understanding a problem is halfway to resolving it for me.

I am and have always been a supporting of law enforcement. Our daughter was a dispatcher for 7 years and only recently moved to a different job. She had many stories of success that she shared with us. But she also had stories where less than satisfactory outcomes resulted. I believe that anyone who is unwilling to look at those outcomes carefully in order to make improvements is missing a great opportunity. I love my church's pastor and gain a great deal from him in many ways. But I'm not afraid to look him right in the eye and tell him that I think that he is wrong. He is a man just as I am and men make mistakes. I always believe that it is a mistake when someone who was not a criminal and committed no criminal act up to the point of the shooting is fired on by law enforcement. It remains to be seen in what I hope is a thorough and honest investigation following such a shooting as to whether the mistake was preventable.

I feel it is right for me to examine those mistakes also. If I were in the same situation, what could I have done to produce a different outcome? Having a good idea what normal police protocols might be in a given situation is a help. As a law abiding citizen, I'm not deliberately going to do anything that I understand to be provocative. But as happens on threads here all the time, a misunderstanding can easily lead to an unintended provocation. That is exactly what I'm trying to work through in my head. All I can do is try to train my brain how to think about LE encounters and hope that it will retain that when or if such an encounter develops. The last thing that I can afford is panic if I get a sense I'm not responding correctly.

[stoneg1]

I wear hearing devices and have as yet had a problem of hearing LEO's asking me questions standing beside the drivers side of my vehicle. One scenario I have pondered is when you inform the LEO that you carrying and he/she asks you to remove your firearm, how would I respond. This of course is if you are standing outside the vehicle. I have pretty much decided that I will ask him/her if they would remove it from my holster since I would be reluctant to touch my firearm for any reason at that time. I could turn my back of them with my hands raised to reduce any threat I might present to them - but only at their direction. If seated in my vehicle I am not sure how I would respond other than asking them if I could step outside my vehicle where they could remove it from my holster. I don't know if this situation would ever occur but I always try to think about what I might do in any situation before they happen. Like I always told the players when I coached a softball team, think about what you will do with the ball if it is hit to you before the ball is pitched. Welcome other opinions .

[tbrown]

I wear hearing devices and have as yet had a problem of hearing LEO's asking me questions standing beside the drivers side of my vehicle. One scenario I have pondered is when you inform the LEO that you carrying and he/she asks you to remove your firearm, how would I respond. This of course is if you are standing outside the vehicle. I have pretty much decided that I will ask him/her if they would remove it from my holster since I would be reluctant to touch my firearm for any reason at that time. I could turn my back of them with my hands raised to reduce any threat I might present to them - but only at their direction. If seated in my vehicle I am not sure how I would respond other than asking them if I could step outside my vehicle where they could remove it from my holster. I don't know if this situation would ever occur but I always try to think about what I might do in any situation before they happen. Like I always told the players when I coached a softball team, think about what you will do with the ball if it is hit to you before the ball is pitched. Welcome other opinions .

I know of police disarming people with a CHL during a traffic stop but I don't know any where the police asked that person to pull their gun. I suppose anything is possible but if they don't feel safe with you having a gun in your holster I don't think they would be more comfortable with it in your hand.

[b322da]

Stoneg1 gives another good imaginary horrible for us to think about, Chasfm11. A very similar thing happened to me after a fender-bender when I still had my hearing. When I handed the responding officer (very young, possibly new at the trade) my papers, he looked confused, as if he knew not what to do next. (I was outside my dented car at the time.) I had the impression it may have been the first time he ever saw a CHL. I was told to remove my firearm and place it in sight under the passenger's seat of my car. He had his hand on his Glock throughout our conversation after I told him I was armed. I complied. There I was, three feet away from an obviously inexperienced and nervous officer, handling my weapon with one in the breech. He then turned his back to me so that I could not hear him and used his portable radio, most likely, of course, looking for instructions as to how to proceed. While his back was to me my weapon was within easy reach.

Here the conditions were set for a bad misunderstanding if my deafness had proceeded to the point where it is now -- if I had not been able to hear the officer, or, even as now, I heard him but could not understand him and had to guess what it was he was saying. The conditions were also set for a fatal encounter on his end if I had been a fleeing felon.

After his discussion on his radio all became cool, he completed his fender-bender paperwork, and, my car being driveable, he sent me on my way, advising me to leave my weapon under the passenger seat where he had had me put it.

This incident concerned me for a long time. As I mentally debriefed it my major concern, given my many years as an LEO, was about the future safety of this apparently green officer. It appeared to me, possibly wrongly, of course, that he had never heard about CHLs. But more important, it appeared to me that his procedure overall needed a lot of improvement -- he put himself, and kept himself, in a very dangerous position. In sum, I felt that he needed a lot of additional training, and that his supervisors were deficient in giving him that training before sending him out alone on patrol. (As a minor simple aside, as I drove away as instructed my weapon was clearly visible with the passenger door open, which raises obvious questions under both CHL and MPA law.)

Having been an LEO for so long I want to assure all those reading that I respect the trade and those in it. However, It may well be that my experience has caused me to be overly critical of an LEO who I thought lacked some of the skills he should have had, and I hope I have not done so in this case.

In any event, to go back on topic, as my hearing deteriorated to the point of deafness, my recollection of this event, coupled with reading of fatal likely noncompliance misunderstandings, led me to stop carrying until my new Cochlear implant improved my hearing again. I accepted the risk of not carrying when compared with my perception of a possibly greater risk in the case of apparent noncompliance while carrying. A personal judgment call.

Jim

[chasfm11]

I wear hearing devices and have as yet had a problem of hearing LEO's asking me questions standing beside the drivers side of my vehicle. One scenario I have pondered is when you inform the LEO that you carrying and he/she asks you to remove your firearm, how would I respond. This of course is if you are standing outside the vehicle. I have pretty much decided that I will ask him/her if they would remove it from my holster since I would be reluctant to touch my firearm for any reason at that time. I could turn my back of them with my hands raised to reduce any threat I might present to them - but only at their direction. If seated in my vehicle I am not sure how I would respond other than asking them if I could step outside my vehicle where they could remove it from my holster. I don't know if this situation would ever occur but I always try to think about what I might do in any situation before they happen. Like I always told the players when I coached a softball team, think about what you will do with the ball if it is hit to you before the ball is pitched. Welcome other opinions .

I know of police disarming people with a CHL during a traffic stop but I don't know any where the police asked that person to pull their gun. I suppose anything is possible but if they don't feel safe with you having a gun in your holster I don't think they would be more comfortable with it in your hand.

Thank you. An officer wanting to disarm me is one of several situations that I've thought about. My expectation is that the officer is outside my car with possible heavy road notice behind he or she. They are giving me instructions about what I'm supposed to do or not do that I might not clearly understand. I've had the hearing aids several days now and know that the areas beside highways and inside restaurants are my worst case situations. The last thing that I want is to not be able to clearly follow specific directions in the event that I'm asked to handle my gun in any way in an officer's presence.

I'm not trying to overrate the associated risks in compliance. As I said, I'm rarely stopped for any traffic situation (3 times in the last 15 years and none were citations). I have had a recent interaction with officers specifically about my carrying but the environment posed no problem to my being able to clearly understand them. But I still be believe the time to think of such things is not when they happen and I appreciate all the discussion confirming the fact that I'm neither alone with my problem nor with my concerns about it. I also appreciate all the contributors to this thread not making it controversial. We ought to be able to have this discussion without needing a moderator.

[flechero]

Keep in mind that in the situations I've seen video of, there is never one officer yelling, but anywhere from 3 or 4 to a dozen or more, yelling different commands, at asynchronous intervals, a maximum of noise, confusion, movement, distraction and more besides.

This is my fear also... one or more yelling hands up, others yelling don't move and still others yelling drop your weapon. Do either any of them you risk being shot by those issuing other commands. My thought (hope) is that if I freeze and remain frozen with my hands held high or outstretched on the ground, either they will come get the gun or get on the same page with one another.

[The Annoyed Man]

Personally I think the biggest risk is from actions caused by ones own mindset. That you aren't the bad guy so you shouldn't have to prone out. That the cops should just listen to your explanation and then everything will be ok. If there is a shooting and cops roll up I'm not trying to do anything until the cops secure the scene. Hands on my head and in my mind I am already set for being yelled at, berated, jumped on, whatever. Mind you it does mean I might be at greater risk from impersonators but as long as I'm not jumped by surprise I won't be giving the cops any reason to think I'm a threat.

When police shot the man with the knife in the stomach in Dallas when he was not a threat to them, on video, were the cops who did this proned out and cuffed? If not, why not? They manifestly shot him illegally. If I, who has a little trouble hearing sometimes, have some difficulty complying simply because I could not hear the commands spoken to me........especially if they come from multiple sources and are conflicting commands.......and I am shot and killed, will the cop who shouted the conflicting order that got me killed be proned out and cuffed? I don't think so.

Bag that crap. I have no particular animus against cops. I deeply value the service they provide to the community, and I want them to be as effective as possible. But I also deeply value accountability, and police should be held to a standard no less than I am held to. If a cop shoots and kills a person by accident when that person is either trying to comply, or is unable to comply but not a threat (like the guy with the knife was in Dallas), I want to see that officer treated exactly as I would be treated, with no special favors due to his job. . . . .including the handcuffs and the orange suit.

I've already posted earlier in this thread my own concerns, which are similar to chasfm11's. I would feel better about law enforcement IF people simply responded with something like "yes, you're right....it can be a dicey situation, and the LEO certification to carry a gun is not a license to shoot people who didn't need shooting. . . . but we have to trust that in the end, the legal system will prevail, and justice will be meted out."

THAT's the response I would like to hear. . . . not "the biggest risk is caused by one's own mindset." I've already indicated previously in this thread that I would prone myself out, regardless of what the cops tell me if I can't tell what they are saying. That's NOT a bad mindset. That's a "I don't want to get shot" mindset.

I don't want to be THIS person ⬇︎:
[youtube][/youtube]

That's a legitimate desire, and moral reprehension upon anyone who thinks otherwise.

[Diesel42]

Yep, I wear hearing aids and I'm a musician.

This thread makes it clear that any disability makes it difficult to comply according to the expectations reflected on TV. That said, the best any of us can do is not appear a threat and communicate as best we can with the people on the scene.

I want to add... be sure and test your hearing aids playing your oboe and with other folks playing near you. The tones and color of your sound change dramactically.

Happy Trails! N

[chasfm11]

Yep, I wear hearing aids and I'm a musician.

This thread makes it clear that any disability makes it difficult to comply according to the expectations reflected on TV. That said, the best any of us can do is not appear a threat and communicate as best we can with the people on the scene.

I want to add... be sure and test your hearing aids playing your oboe and with other folks playing near you. The tones and color of your sound change dramactically.

Happy Trails! N

You aren't kidding! I played the concert on Saturday night which included the Bach Orchestral Suite #1. A professional 1st oboist was hired and I played the 2nd part. The technical difficulties of the piece were already stretching me to the limits of my current abilities and trying to match his sound and playing style in the give and take between the two oboe parts in the center of fast part of the movement was nearly over the top for me. Instead of sounding like a singular sound, his notes sounded like he was gargling every one of them through my hearing aids. I'm sure that it is somehow tied to the delays among the various microphones on both ears. It took a little adjustment but my wife was in the audience (she is a musician as well) and said that I managed to pull it off. Luck sometimes trumps skills. It was a risk to try to play with the hearing aides but since that is what I do, I figured that the time was now to figure out if I could.

The part of the compliance subject that is still not clear to me is whether one appears more of threat by action or by inaction. I totally agree with the comments that if its possible when officers approach to be on my knees with my hands in the air. In many of the scenarios that I can think of, however, that may not be possible. The traffic stops would be an example. The greatest part of my concern still is around trying to do something like kneel with my hands in the air if that is in conflict with what the officer is telling me that I don't understand. Even a slow movement in the wrong direction has the potential to incorrectly interpreted.

The after concert party on Saturday night proved to me that the hearing aides are not a perfect solution. While I believe that there are still some adjustments that can be made, I had several examples where women's voices where much harder for me to figure out than men's voices in that very noisy environment. I guess I'll just have to hope that the first officer on the scene for me is male.

[TexasCajun]

Speaking from inexperience in both hearing loss and encounters with LEO. I would think it appropriate at some point early in an encounter to either say that you are deaf / hard-of-hearing and slowly point at one ear with your hand.