Domestic violence misdemeanor carrying black powder?

[kcatx]

A friend of mine is planning on buying a black powder pistol. Some time ago (not sure, in the last 10 years I believe) he was charged with misdemeanor domestic violence. I don't know the whole story (not that it specifically matters) but it was something about catching his girlfriend (that he lived with) with another guy, fighting with the other guy, the girl tried to break it up and got accidentally hit. Since they lived together he got charged with domestic violence. Anyway, since he is not allowed to buy a firearm he wants to buy a black powder revolver as legally that is not considered a firearm and he is allowed to buy it. Since I just got my CHL and we were discussing it he asked me if it was legal for him to carry his black powder pistol on his person or in his car. From what I can see it's not illegal as it's not a firearm, but I'm unsure if there were other laws that could apply. Anybody know?

[Pecos]

I think he ought to get in touch with Dr. Phil first !!!! LOL
I would think if it's not considered a fire arm then there would be no back ground check. But I dont know anything about Black Powder guns.
Maybe some pro's here can answer this better.

[olafpfj]

To purchase a black powder rifle or pistol there is no background check or form 4473. You can mail order them and have them delivered to your door. It is not considered a firearm so long as it is unloaded (does not apply in NYC!!). As soon as you load it, however, all the rules and laws of firearms take effect. Loaded defined as powder and ball packed in a ready to fire state. Can't remember if that stretches to having the firearm capped or primed as well. I think just powder and ball qualify it as a loaded firearm.

I could be mistaken but that has been my legal understanding of black powder firearms. I have researched it a bit and I'm pretty sure that's how it works. So, NO, you cannot carry a LOADED black powder pistol without a CHL.

[kcatx]

My question would be, even though it's not a "Firearm" by definition, isn't it still a handgun?

it would still fall under the definition of a "deadly weapon" under TPC 1.07 (17 a-b) ..

that's a gray area... I would seek a lawyer's advise..

If you were to google "Felon hunt black powder texas" you will find lots of people stating that it's ok for a felon (which he isn't, but the gun related rights restriction for the domestic violence misdemeanor is the same) to own, shoot and hunt with a black powder weapon. The law would appear pretty clear on that. The whole "Deadly weapon" thing would seem to apply if you tried to open carry a cap and ball revolver for instance:

Sec. 42.01. DISORDERLY CONDUCT. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly:

(8) displays a firearm or other deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm

..anyway after further googling I've found several people who claim it IS legal in their specific state (which wasn't texas AFAIK), however a common theme to the postings is that you may be arrested but later not charged (beat the charge, take the ride).
Really he's looking for a way to defend himself while in his car or out somewhere. Having the BP revolver in a car seems to be no issue at all from what I can tell either, it's the carrying concealed that I'm wondering about. I'm sure if he had to use it the whole "I would rather be judge by 12 than carried by 6" thing applies.

It does seem that he needs to consult a lawyer to really know however I was hoping somebody here would have some further insight.

Thx

[jimlongley]

In NY State simply possessing the components to load a black powder pistol, normally considered not to be a "firearm" under the law, converts it into a firearm, loaded or not.

[RogueUSMC]

In NY State simply possessing the components to load a black powder pistol, normally considered not to be a "firearm" under the law, converts it into a firearm, loaded or not.

DING DING DING!!! I have found ONE thing NY stated that makes sense!

[puma guy]

If you were to google "Felon hunt black powder texas" you will find lots of people stating that it's ok for a felon (which he isn't, but the gun related rights restriction for the domestic violence misdemeanor is the same) to own, shoot and hunt with a black powder weapon. The law would appear pretty clear on that. The whole "Deadly weapon" thing would seem to apply if you tried to open carry a cap and ball revolver for instance:

It does seem that he needs to consult a lawyer to really know however I was hoping somebody here would have some further insight.

Thx

A black powder revolver is not as exempted by Texas as a non-firearm. There are other considerations to take into account for felons as Federal Law prohibits felons from even possessing ammunition. If his offense was misdemeanor why is he prohibited from possessing a firearm? I know he can't pass the background to purchase, but I didn't know he couldn't own one.

[kcatx]

If you were to google "Felon hunt black powder texas" you will find lots of people stating that it's ok for a felon (which he isn't, but the gun related rights restriction for the domestic violence misdemeanor is the same) to own, shoot and hunt with a black powder weapon. The law would appear pretty clear on that. The whole "Deadly weapon" thing would seem to apply if you tried to open carry a cap and ball revolver for instance:

It does seem that he needs to consult a lawyer to really know however I was hoping somebody here would have some further insight.

Thx

A black powder revolver is not as exempted by Texas as a non-firearm. There are other considerations to take into account for felons as Federal Law prohibits felons from even possessing ammunition. If his offense was misdemeanor why is he prohibited from possessing a firearm? I know he can't pass the background to purchase, but I didn't know he couldn't own one.

I believe a black powder (cap and ball) revolver IS exempt, based on:
235.B(3) "Firearm" means any device designed,
made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a
barrel by using the energy generated by an
explosion or burning substance or any device
readily convertible to that use. Firearm does not
include a firearm that may have, as an integral
part, a folding knife blade or other characteristics
of weapons made illegal by this chapter and that
is:
(A) an antique or curio firearm manufactured
before 1899; or
(B) a replica of an antique or curio firearm
manufactured before 1899, but only if the replica
does not use rim fire or center fire ammunition.

(5) "Handgun" means any firearm that is designed,
made, or adapted to be fired with one
hand.

10.46.02. Unlawful Carrying Weapons.
(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally,
knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about
his person a handgun, illegal knife, or club.


..so if a black powder gun is not a firearm then the firearms laws do not apply. Regarding the misdemeanor, it is treated like a felony, see here:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/misdeme ... lence.html

specifically: "If a person was convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence at any time, he or she may not lawfully possess firearms or ammunition on or after September 30, 1996."

So the bp revolver is legal for him to have, shoot and even hunt with. It logically follows that he can transport it in his car (although logic doesn't necessarily matter in cases of the law!). Can he have it on her person when he walks around though, assuming it's concealed?

Interesting-- I just found somebody who asked the exact same question here:
http://www.texasguntalk.com/forums/texa ... earms.html

[bizarrenormality]

In NY State simply possessing the components to load a black powder pistol, normally considered not to be a "firearm" under the law, converts it into a firearm, loaded or not.

DING DING DING!!! I have found ONE thing NY stated that makes sense!

That makes as much sense as banning high capacity soft drinks.

[lfinsr]

While researching something else I ran across this...

"Sec. 46.04. UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF FIREARM. (a) A person who has been convicted of a felony commits an offense if he possesses a firearm:

(1) after conviction and before the fifth anniversary of the person's release from confinement following conviction of the felony or the person's release from supervision under community supervision, parole, or mandatory supervision, whichever date is later; or

(2) after the period described by Subdivision (1), at any location other than the premises at which the person lives.

(b) A person who has been convicted of an offense under Section 22.01, punishable as a Class A misdemeanor and involving a member of the person's family or household, commits an offense if the person possesses a firearm before the fifth anniversary of the later of:

(1) the date of the person's release from confinement following conviction of the misdemeanor; or

(2) the date of the person's release from community supervision following conviction of the misdemeanor."

Depending on when the offense was committed he may be eligible to own a firearm.

Larry

[MoJo]

A misdemeanor FV conviction permanently prohibits one from possession of a firearm not forearm. My redneck is showing.

The Lautenberg Amendment of the Family Violence Act in 1997 did that. Thanks Frank.

[texanjoker]

A misdemeanor FV conviction permanently prohibits one from possession of a firearm not forearm. My redneck is showing.

The Lautenberg Amendment of the Family Violence Act in 1997 did that. Thanks Frank.

Not only that it was retroactive. I knew a good dude that had a misd. conviction when he was a marine. It wasn't bad enough to not hire him. He was on the force a long time and that passed and he was unemployed.

As far as legal? That is really pushing it. W/O researching this, the one law somebody posted talked about curios made before 1899?

[srothstein]

You need to look at two sets of laws. The definitions for Texas say:

(3) "Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to that use. Firearm does not include a firearm that may have, as an integral part, a folding knife blade or other characteristics of weapons made illegal by this chapter and that is:
(A) an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899; or
(B) a replica of an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899, but only if the replica does not use rim fire or center fire ammunition.
. . .
(5) "Handgun" means any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand.

So, Texas does not define a black powder pistol as a firearm if it does not use rimfire or centerfire ammunition and is a replica of one made on or before Dec. 31, 1898. This would make it legal for your friend or any felon to carry a black powder percussion revolver of the type that is a replica. They are commonly sold as kits to assemble, blue, and stain the wood yourself.

Please note that Texas law makes no distinction between a loaded or unloaded firearm, even in the case of black powder guns.


Federal law (18 USC 921) says:

(3) The term "firearm" means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
. . .
(16) The term "antique firearm" means -
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system)
manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica -
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or
receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

(17)(A) The term "ammunition" means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term "armor piercing ammunition" means -
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
(C) The term "armor piercing ammunition" does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other
projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.

So the federal law would also allow a felon or your friend to carry a percussion fired replica of a black powder revolver.

Please note the definition of ammunition, which I included because someone pointed out that felons could not possess it. Texas does not have that law, but it might impact your friend. If he carries real black powder or the replacement powder (not smokeless powder) that are not designed to be used in regular ammo, he should be okay. But since some modern rounds, such as the 30-30, were really designed for black powder and it may be claimed that they can still be made that way, he could get in trouble for carrying powder.

[kcatx]

Thanks for the input everybody, I'll pass it along to him.