Shelby County Man charged with murder for defending property

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frankie_the_yankee
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#16

Post by frankie_the_yankee »

KBCraig wrote: We have got to stop sticking our heads and our children's heads in the sand, pretending evil does not exist. Unless we recover the fight-back spirit buried inside ourselves and pass it own to our kids, we are doomed. No one can predict or stop the next horrendous act that will surely come to be. What we can do is assure that our survival instincts will lower the number of victims.

What other choice do we have?

Billie Louden (loudenview@aol.com) is a deputy sheriff in Denver and an Army veteran.
You and the author of that piece are so right.

The sad thing is if history is any guide, people who have deluded themselves to the extent that our "elites" have do not often come to their senses without a major wake up call. And in this case, the wake up call will likely involve a huge amount of human misery.

Prior to WW2, the overwhelming sentiment in America was to avoid conflict in Europe and the Far East. Roosevelt knew better, and exercised true leadership such as we, in our lifetimes, have never seen.

It took Pearl Harbor to bring people to their senses and recognize the true threat to our very survival that was at hand. In the end, millions died. But the survivors have been characterized as our "greatest generation".

The hard truth is that tough times produce tough people. The corollary is that "utopia produces irresponsible fools and wimps" (F_T_Y, 2007).

I think this all has something to do with eating the fruit of the Tree of Good and Evil.

Things haven't been tough in America in a long time.

In recent history, societies have responded to threats in two ways. The UK model has been to virtually ban self defense and all effective means of doing so (to minimize the opportunities of criminals of getting their hands on weapons), and to put cameras (now including microphones and even speakers) everywhere to speed the response of "authorities" to citizens in peril. This casts the people as helpless victims, trusting mostly to luck as to whether they live or die.

The Isreali model is quite different. The Isrealis have basically armed themselves to the teeth, and encouraged citizens to take responsibility for both their own defense and that of society themselves.

You won't find any gun free school zones in Isreal.

Where we go is still to be determined. I think it is only a matter of time before Islamic militants will take advantage of our open society and begin committing small scale acts of terror here. It won't be the Cho's we will have to worry about. It will be militants, probably with automatic weapons, shooting up shopping malls and other public gathering places.

Logic tells us that it is impossible to defend all of these places all of the time without transforming our society into a full-fledged police state. (And maybe not even then.) The only alternative is for people to take responsibility for defending themselves, as the Isrealis have done.

But logic may not prevail. That's why we, in what I would call "the self defense movement" need to do our best to make our case and inculcate our values into the larger society.

Otherwise, a police state is waiting just down the road.
Last edited by frankie_the_yankee on Sun May 13, 2007 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ahm jus' a Southern boy trapped in a Yankee's body
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Liberty
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#17

Post by Liberty »

KBCraig wrote: I found it ironic that the one person who did try to block the Virginia Tech gunman's way was a professor who had survived the Holocaust, a man who, I am quite sure, had looked insanity in the eye before and survived. He understood that inaction meant death. This is also what must have finally occurred to the passengers on United Flight 93 on Sept. 11, 2001, when they chose to fight back. Even though they died, they died fighting and on their terms.

We have got to stop sticking our heads and our children's heads in the sand, pretending evil does not exist. Unless we recover the fight-back spirit buried inside ourselves and pass it own to our kids, we are doomed. No one can predict or stop the next horrendous act that will surely come to be. What we can do is assure that our survival instincts will lower the number of victims.

What other choice do we have?

Billie Louden (loudenview@aol.com) is a deputy sheriff in Denver and an Army veteran.
I believe it is important to remember hero's and tell their story. Liviu Librescu, 76, a Holocaust survivor who lived in Eastern Europe and Israel before adopting the U.S. as his own. Librescu taught at Virginia Tech for 20 years, and was an internationally known lecturer on aeronautical engineering. His life and heroism deserves to be remembered. Someday Hollywood will make a movie. It will probably be about Cho Seung-Hui, not about Liviu Librescu, and that will be a shame.
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"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." John F. Kennedy
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stevie_d_64
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#18

Post by stevie_d_64 »

frankie_the_yankee wrote:
stevie_d_64 wrote: "If he (owner) had just left the (alleged assailant) alone, and just call the cops, no one would have gotten killed."

For years I have had this nagging little feeling that there is this general consensus in the general non-carrying public, and maybe within the very slim fringes within our own community that if you "verbally" instruct someone to stop doing something forceful, or potentially injurous or deadly to someone else, you are escalating the situation...Therefore you are creating a situation that forces you to react possibly with the use of deadly force (extreme)...

It is just something that bugs me a little bit about this, and a few other incidents over the years...
Oh it's more than a nagging feeling to me. I'd consider it pretty much the lay of the land in much of the country, including the so-called (self-annointed) "elites".

I could rant for page after droning page on this, but the short treatment is that the "non-confrontational" philosophy is in essence an elaborate effort for people to rationalize their own cowardice.

Ironically enough, the purveyors of avoiding confronation, of choosing a strategy of abject surrender ("give them what they want and they won't hurt you"), and of "letting the police do their jobs" (when they do not really know what those jobs actually are), tend to be the same people who make a big deal of the importance of having high "self esteem".

So how much self esteem is exhibited by immediately surrendering to the demands of a criminal attacker?

I think that most of us on this forum actually do have high self esteem. We hold ourselves in such high regard that we are not willing to "outsource" the protection of our very lives, and the lives of those important to us, to "hired help".

Read "A Nation of Cowards" by Jeffrey Snyder for a full treatment of this idea.
Nope, not necessary...You nailed it...No need to drone on page after page...

I do not believe there is a real perveyance of shoot first, ask questions later mentality...There is an assertiveness, a confidence, that is based upon a good understanding of the law and our station concerning real life issues and situations that may come into our small circles...

It is a shame that when and if we do take offence, and our response is to "ask" someone to stop, that that response is somehow misconstrued as an escalation...

Daytime, nighttime, assault on a person or property...Your response to ask someone to stop should never be taken as an escalation, thats what I am seeing from the press, and the DA in this case...

We know what parameters we must work under...And to further difuse the publics opinion concerning self-defense, and cause any hesitation in our community, my opinion is extremely dangerous...
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stevie_d_64
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#19

Post by stevie_d_64 »

frankie_the_yankee wrote:That's why we, in what I would call "the self defense movement" need to do our best to make our case and inculcate our values into the larger society.
Bingo!
"Perseverance and Preparedness triumph over Procrastination and Paranoia every time.” -- Steve
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boomerang
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Re:

#20

Post by boomerang »

frankie_the_yankee wrote:
stevie_d_64 wrote: "If he (owner) had just left the (alleged assailant) alone, and just call the cops, no one would have gotten killed."

For years I have had this nagging little feeling that there is this general consensus in the general non-carrying public, and maybe within the very slim fringes within our own community that if you "verbally" instruct someone to stop doing something forceful, or potentially injurous or deadly to someone else, you are escalating the situation...Therefore you are creating a situation that forces you to react possibly with the use of deadly force (extreme)...

It is just something that bugs me a little bit about this, and a few other incidents over the years...
Oh it's more than a nagging feeling to me. I'd consider it pretty much the lay of the land in much of the country, including the so-called (self-annointed) "elites".

I could rant for page after droning page on this, but the short treatment is that the "non-confrontational" philosophy is in essence an elaborate effort for people to rationalize their own cowardice.

Ironically enough, the purveyors of avoiding confronation, of choosing a strategy of abject surrender ("give them what they want and they won't hurt you"), and of "letting the police do their jobs" (when they do not really know what those jobs actually are), tend to be the same people who make a big deal of the importance of having high "self esteem".

So how much self esteem is exhibited by immediately surrendering to the demands of a criminal attacker?

I think that most of us on this forum actually do have high self esteem. We hold ourselves in such high regard that we are not willing to "outsource" the protection of our very lives, and the lives of those important to us, to "hired help".

Read "A Nation of Cowards" by Jeffrey Snyder for a full treatment of this idea.
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I good reminder for the new members who weren't around when Frankie was with us.
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WarHawk-AVG
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Re: Shelby County Man charged with murder for defending prop

#21

Post by WarHawk-AVG »

Lodge2004 wrote:
kwf2006 wrote:Ford says he thought he had a right to shoot Fountain under a Texas law.
I may be wrong, but I don't believe "I killed him because I could" is a good defense to a murder charge.
I guess the "He needed killin" excuse won't hold water either?
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drjoker
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Re: Shelby County Man charged with murder for defending property

#22

Post by drjoker »

You guys are absolutely right! We need to take responsibility for our own safety or a police state (a la London) is just around the corner! Most of all, we have to stick together and help each other out in order for our strategy to succeed.

If any one of us needs to go before a grand jury for a self-defense shooting, I suggest that we help out with each others' legal fees. Just post the legal fee shortfall for the grand jury hearing and we will each donate $100 or 1/20th of that legal fee, or whatever we could afford, until the target amount is reached. We will know when the target amount is reached because each donator will post here after donating. Maybe, the self-defense shooter could put up a gun or something as a raffle item to encourage donations. Payment will be made to the lawyer's office, not the self-defense shooter to avoid possible scams. I also suggest that every one of us buys legal insurance and save up at least a couple thousand dollars as a legal defense fund.

Brothers, let's watch each others' backs!
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