Effective Notice question

[rotor]

If they don't have a 30-06 at the entrance and you haven't read the back of the ticket (who does), have you been given notice? Seems if the wanted to give notice they would post at the door as this is not like you have 20 entrances, it's a theater and you have to go in through the entrance. I would argue that unless you actually read the ticket you have not been given notice. When you park your car at a garage and they give you a ticket with all of the "we are not responsible" items that doesn't mean that they are not responsible for damage just because they give you a ticket stub. Just my opinion.

[LSL]

Rereading ticket notice with magnifier
*** Ineffective Notice: Printed on the ticket is out-of-date verbiage, ergo, it does NOT meet requirements, per letter of state law.

[srothstein]

yes its CITY owned, maintained and supported same as the wortham center, miller outdoor theatre and a host of others


State Class Code Land Use Code Building Class Total Units
XV -- Other Exempt (Government) 4680 -- Cultural Facility E 0
Land Area Building Area Net Rentable Area Neighborhood Market Area Map Facet Key Map®
37,241 SF 109,437 0 5900 5001 -- Central Business District 5457A 493L

Just so you know, the state category code XV includes all charitable organizations and not just government. The book explaining all of the state property classifications guides is at: http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/t ... 96-313.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[RX8er]

the alley theatre can post away, i'll walk right past it, its a city owned building!

Alley theater isn't city owned, it was privately built by a non-profit opening in 68 and is still operated and owned by the same non-profit. For those who don't know the Alley is a live theater with 2 stages in downtown Houston. The notice on the tickets is legally sufficient for a 30.06 warning. You will be risking arrest if you carry in the venue.

yes its CITY owned, maintained and supported same as the wortham center, miller outdoor theatre and a host of others


State Class Code Land Use Code Building Class Total Units
XV -- Other Exempt (Government) 4680 -- Cultural Facility E 0
Land Area Building Area Net Rentable Area Neighborhood Market Area Map Facet Key Map®
37,241 SF 109,437 0 5900 5001 -- Central Business District 5457A 493L

I don't know but am curious so....

I called and the lady that answered the phone said that the non profit had an endowment for the land and collected money from Houston residents in the 60's. They are a tax exempt Cultural Facility and that she was unsure if it was owned by the Houston or not. She "has a feeling" that it is owned by the Alley Theatre and not the city. She said that if you are city owned, there are certain things you have to offer and thye do not. She took my name and phone number and will call me back.

I heard back. It is NOT a city owned property. Anyone with any questions should contact Dean Gladden of the Alley. They were curious why I was asking but I gave them no reason other than a research project on city owned arts facilities.

[CainA]

They were curious why I was asking but I gave them no reason other than a research project on city owned arts facilities.

Very clever answer and believable to boot.

[jmra]

I would argue that unless you actually read the ticket you have not been given notice.

"Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written
language identical to the following:..."

Let's change it up a little. You walk into an establishment and a greeter hands you a card on which is printed the correct wording for 30.06 "written communication". Are you saying that if you toss the card without reading it that you have not received notice?

[Jim88]

Code: Select all

Let's change it up a little. You walk into an establishment and a greeter hands you a card on which is printed the correct wording for 30.06 "written communication". Are you saying that if you toss the card without reading it that you have not received notice?

I would add to that by saying when you're given verbal notice, I don't believe they're required to recite the exact wording that must be on the sign.

If it's that much of a gray area on this site, imagine trying to explain it to the police officer arresting you.

[rotor]

jmra, I don't know the answer to your question. Let's say the notice is printed on a card in such a small font that you can't read it. Have you been given notice? This is like the bible printed on a pinhead. Can you read it? Ever watch on tv when they have 20 lines in fine print on the bottom of a commercial? Can you read the warning. The legislature defined how a 30-06 sign must look including the size of the font. I think this is an undefined area but and at my age using trifocal glasses one could easily argue that a very fine print card is not necessarily notice. These of course are lawyer issues. So you go to the movies, it's dark, the entire 30-06 is printed on a ticket stub which you can't read, I would think that you have not been given notice. It is possible now to easily print the entire 30-06 on a dot size point. Get out a microscope and read it. Is that notice, yes if you got out a microscope and used it. Is this the legal argument of what a "reasonable person" might do?

[jmra]

jmra, I don't know the answer to your question. Let's say the notice is printed on a card in such a small font that you can't read it. Have you been given notice? This is like the bible printed on a pinhead. Can you read it? Ever watch on tv when they have 20 lines in fine print on the bottom of a commercial? Can you read the warning. The legislature defined how a 30-06 sign must look including the size of the font. I think this is an undefined area but and at my age using trifocal glasses one could easily argue that a very fine print card is not necessarily notice. These of course are lawyer issues. So you go to the movies, it's dark, the entire 30-06 is printed on a ticket stub which you can't read, I would think that you have not been given notice. It is possible now to easily print the entire 30-06 on a dot size point. Get out a microscope and read it. Is that notice, yes if you got out a microscope and used it. Is this the legal argument of what a "reasonable person" might do?

Let's say it is a 3x5 card and the print is easily read. But you toss it without reading it. Have you legally received notice?
I believe you have because the establishment has followed the guidelines as laid out by the law. They have no control over whether or not you read it. I sure wouldn't want my defense in court to be, "Yep, they gave me a card but I'm not responsible because I didn't bother to read it."

This is in response to:

rotor wrote:
I would argue that unless you actually read the ticket you have not been given notice.

ETA: I guess the argument could be made that the intent of the law is that it be a card specifically for the written notice and not tacked on to something that would cause it to so easily be missed.

[Ameer]

Let's say it is a 3x5 card and the print is easily read. But you toss it without reading it. Have you legally received notice?
I believe you have because the establishment has followed the guidelines as laid out by the law. They have no control over whether or not you read it. I sure wouldn't want my defense in court to be, "Yep, they gave me a card but I'm not responsible because I didn't bother to read it."

I agree but I'm one of those people who think if they orally tell everyone "no guns allowed" at the front door but John ignores them because he's texting, John still received notice.

[JP171]

yes its CITY owned, maintained and supported same as the wortham center, miller outdoor theatre and a host of others


State Class Code Land Use Code Building Class Total Units
XV -- Other Exempt (Government) 4680 -- Cultural Facility E 0
Land Area Building Area Net Rentable Area Neighborhood Market Area Map Facet Key Map®
37,241 SF 109,437 0 5900 5001 -- Central Business District 5457A 493L

Just so you know, the state category code XV includes all charitable organizations and not just government. The book explaining all of the state property classifications guides is at: http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/t ... 96-313.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After having read that pamphlet and talking to HCAD, the building was at one time owned by the city, the Alley theater corp has made application to change that as the building has been donated to the Theater Corp by the city, the classification will still be XV Other exemptions (public Charitable) what is in parenthesis is the defining point if it says government then the building is owned by a governmental agency. I had a very nice conversation with the chief appraiser at HCAD and a very nice tax associate at the comptrollers office and now understand how that works. the contract for maintenance services has been terminated with the city contracted maintenance company. but if the language is wrong its not effective notice verbal will do but the old language doesn't suffice.

[maddenjc]

I've been watching this thread with some curiosity. However, I have a similar scenario to describe. Instead of something small like a movie ticket, what if a business handed you a pamphlet of some sort--one with lets say twenty or thirty pages. Somewhere in the pamphlet is a 30.06 notice.

I can understand both sides of the argument regarding being handed a 3x5 card with the notice on it, but what about something like the above where the notice is buried. It would be reasonable that I didn't actually read the notice.

I am not a lawyer, but my thought regarding both scenarios comes down to what is reasonable. It might be reasonable that you'll read a 3x5 card whose purpose is to give notice, but other obscure methods might not hold up in court. It might also be a case of beating the wrap, but not ride...

Additionally, I'm not sure why a business would make it difficult to see the notice if their real intention is to prohibit legal concealed carry, create an unsafe environment, and lose my business. :)

[jmra]

Additionally, I'm not sure why a business would make it difficult to see the notice if their real intention is to prohibit legal concealed carry, create an unsafe environment, and lose my business. :)

My guess would be that they don't really care if you do carry but want to separate themselves from liability if something happens.

[EEllis]

yes its CITY owned, maintained and supported same as the wortham center, miller outdoor theatre and a host of others


State Class Code Land Use Code Building Class Total Units
XV -- Other Exempt (Government) 4680 -- Cultural Facility E 0
Land Area Building Area Net Rentable Area Neighborhood Market Area Map Facet Key Map®
37,241 SF 109,437 0 5900 5001 -- Central Business District 5457A 493L

Just so you know, the state category code XV includes all charitable organizations and not just government. The book explaining all of the state property classifications guides is at: http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/t ... 96-313.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After having read that pamphlet and talking to HCAD, the building was at one time owned by the city, the Alley theater corp has made application to change that as the building has been donated to the Theater Corp by the city, the classification will still be XV Other exemptions (public Charitable) what is in parenthesis is the defining point if it says government then the building is owned by a governmental agency. I had a very nice conversation with the chief appraiser at HCAD and a very nice tax associate at the comptrollers office and now understand how that works. the contract for maintenance services has been terminated with the city contracted maintenance company. but if the language is wrong its not effective notice verbal will do but the old language doesn't suffice.

If they told you that they were wrong. The land and building never belonged to the city and was built in 68 by the Alley. It is clear that on a card it is required that the wording be exact.

[tommyg]

Go visit Texas3006.com they have a lot of good info concerning signs and prohibited areas